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Intro / Outro: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm David Harvey and I'm here with John Andrews and this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries here every two weeks. Talking about two different texts taken from the Bible. This is our second season. It's about the miracles of Jesus. And this is episode three. 

And it's called. 5,000.  

David: [00:00:32] Well, hello, John, how are you?

John: [00:00:36] I'm doing fantastic. Sorry. Yes. Good to see you. And of course our listeners hear us, but when we're doing this podcast, we get to see each other as well. So that's wonderful you in Calgary and me and north Lincolnshire and up, although It's a super early start for you, David I'm, I'm having a nice sort of middle of the day timeframe, but you're up very early to help record this.

So yeah. 

David: [00:00:58] One of these days, maybe we'll start sneakily releasing some video podcasts, but uh, the minute you just get to hear us and and some of our fans are probably saying that's good.

John: [00:01:08] Yes. Yes. Well, I'm, I'm personally saying that's good, with with my face. Absolutely. So, so we'll, we'll leave people in mystery as to what we look like. Absolutely. 

David: [00:01:19] Fantastic. And so we are talking about miracles of Jesus and really making sense of the miracles of Jesus. We've, we're, we're just to remind everyone, or perhaps you've not caught the last episodes, this sense of digging into the miracles to see not only what's happening in these stories, but what the stories might be teaching us about, about what it is to follow Jesus about what it is to, to be human.

Really there's way more depth to them than just simply something miraculous happened. 

John: [00:01:50] Yeah, 

David: [00:01:51] And I am kind of excited about that because we're, we're jumping into Matthew chapter 14 today. This is just a really brilliant little story. And so I'm going to read it, John, and then we're going to dive in. It's quite possible that this story might be familiar to some of our listeners.

 Again, one of these stories that has some language that has made its way into contemporary culture. I remember as a kid, whenever my Gran was having to cook for a lot of people and was having to thin out the soup so that it would make sure it reached everybody. She used to say, it's like the feeding of the 5,000 she used to say was Scottish grind.

So, so this is Matthew chapter 14, and we're going to begin at verse 13, John. He says, no, when Jesus heard this. I don't know, I'm going to see what this is, but you and me are almost definitely going to want to talk about what this is in a few minutes time. But when Jesus heard this, he was drew from there in a boat to a deserted place by himself.

But when the crowds heard it, they followed him on foot. From the times when he went to shore, he saw a great crowd and he had compassion for them and cured their sick. When it was evening, the disciples came to him and said, well, this is a deserted place. And the hour is now late. Send the crowds away. So they may go into the villages and buy food for themselves.

But Jesus said to them, well, they need don't go away. You give them something to eat. And they replied. So we have nothing here, but five loaves and two fish. And he said, bring them here to me. And then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass, taking the five loaves and the two fish. He looked up to him.

Blessed and broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples. And the disciples gave them to the crowds and all ate and were filled and they took up what was left over of the broken pieces, 12 baskets full. And those who ate were about 5,000 men besides women and children.

There's the story of another favorite of Sunday school teachers, the world over,

John: [00:04:11] Come on. Come on. Absolutely. My my, my favorite bit in Sunday school was a, they all ate and were satisfied. Come on. Now. I like that. I like the idea that we're not just eating, but we're eating until we're full to the brim. So, yeah.

I love that idea of that 

David: [00:04:25] So a storage on that has a lot of familiarity. And, and again, a story where a lot of the focus, I think can sometimes be in our interpretation on almost the wrong things. I remember as a younger person, that the huge discussion that was going on in the church context around how did this, how did this work?

So when Jesus took the five to five loaves and two fish was the miracle that five loaves and two fish grew and became enough for 5,000 people, or did everybody get a little tiny crumb and miracle was that, that satisfied them as much as that's perhaps a fascinating discussion. I feel like each the sort of thing we're wanting to try and avoid in this sort of conversation about, well, how does this happen and actually see what else is going on here.

That's giving us insight into Jesus and understanding into, into who Jesus is. But interestingly, but this story, it's the only miracle story of Jesus that actually appears in all four gospels. Right? I mean, what do you make of that when we should, we've got all these, these four gospels, all giving us different insights into Jesus's life and, and ministry.

And Matt may even surprise some listeners to go wait, what, all the stories aren't in all the gospels and not only are not all the stories in all the gospels, there's actually only one miracle story that the all four gospels think I got to tell this story. I mean, that's quite interesting, isn't it?

John: [00:05:51] it's fascinating. And of course for our listeners to think about, cause we, we keep nudging in the lovely little hermeneutical ideas or how to read the text, how to understand that. And of course, when it comes to the gospels, you get this beautiful tension between what they share together and what they uniquely present.

And so it's letting each gospel writer speak in their own, right? So Matthew has something he wants to say, Luke has something he wants to say, et cetera. But then there are moments when they share certain stories together and right across the four gospels you get, maybe each of the writers are including a specific story or, or in this case, this incredible miracle and, and a moment like that, that should cause us to lean in and go, wow.

Is that what makes this particular miracle so special or outstanding in the thinking of four gospel writers that they all include it when there, when there's a whole bunch of stuff, you think, well, why isn't the reason of Lazarus from the dead in all four gospels? That's pretty cool. That's pretty amazing.

So, so, you're, you're sort of asking, that's an interesting thing. And our, I think it's one of the things hermeneutically our listeners should lean into when they are reading the gospels is the spot, the stuff that seems to correlate and ask why as well, as of course, try to celebrate what is unique in each of the gospel writers. 

David: [00:07:27]  I also find myself wondering some things, what it's like to be at the gospel writing processes, you think of that you're writing your mark or Luke and you're writing through these stories and you're maybe you've got a friend everything happened in community in those days, so, right.

Okay. I'm going to put together, this gospel says, Luke, and they're talking about what stories should we include? And I often love the idea that somebody goes to do a story about Lazarus and Luke's like, nah, we'll leave that. I mean, it is. It's interesting to even put our minds into that, to realize then this underlying sense.

Why? Like, why would you leave that story out? And that, to me brings us to exactly the point, which is that the gospels are not biographies.  If you were writing a biography of Jesus, you would never leave the, the raising of Lazarus. but if you're trying to write a discipleship document, right, if you're trying to write a document that has a particular agenda to push you towards following Jesus, then you might see, well, the way I'm writing the document, these are the stories that I need.

And, and it's quite likely in early Christianity, many of the stories were knowing that didn't even John makes that reference in John's gospel. Doesn't he that know there's more stories. I just didn't have space. And I was trying to lead you to think about Jesus as the Messiah. So there's, there's all sorts of space for that, that thinking.

But that's what I find so fascinating about the feeding of the 5,000. Here I have to ask myself the question. What is it about a miracle of feeding people who are hungry, that all four gospel writers thought  when I'm teaching people how to follow Jesus? I have to tell them this story. And I think that it's worth reflection right at the very start for us to almost cool.

A story about feeding the hungry seems to be considered a central story for the disciple of Jesus to know. 

John: [00:09:22] Absolutely. And and of course it, it causes us to lean into Jesus' relationship with the crowed under of a fascinating context of that, which we're gonna reflect on. And just a moment, I think but also the fact that he was not simply concerned with bringing the kingdom to the crowd, but actually ministering to them, helping them in their ordinary everyday needs.

He could have dismissed that crowd. He could have said to the disciples, absolutely send them away with no food, but instead Jesus. Leans into pervading sustenance for this, this massive community, 5,000 plus people. There's all sorts of estimates as to how many people he may have actually fed.

We will not go there. I don't think, but it's just, we know it's 5,000 plus, and actually he leaves them satisfied. And interestingly, of course, immediately after this week, we didn't read that, but he he's able to dismiss the crowed. So it seems that the crowed at this point are, are undiscussable. They, they, they don't want to leave.

They they're, they're hanging on to everything they can get here, but Jesus then after feeding them is able to dismiss them and they actually do go home at least on, on that side of the Galilee. So, so it's it's it is worth sort of thinking about my goodness. Why, why do we have this repeated in all four gospels. 

David: [00:10:48] Matthew gives you a little bit of this interesting suit. Jesus goes to shore, he sees this great crowd of people and he had compassion on them. The text, the text said this, this fascinating little Greek word in there. I I'm a fan of this Greek word. Do you like this one?

John: [00:11:08] It's like, it's like, you really got to get your teeth right in that and not have a mouth full of rice Krispies. When you're saying that it's a, 

David: [00:11:15] Yes, definitely.

John: [00:11:16] word, serious word out. Of course, Chris, the root of the root of the word is this sort of the idea of a Splack Milan, this, this bowel something's coming from the depth of his being that is, that is reaching out to these people.

This isn't just Jesus who these people are hungry. That's if we can hustle up some food for them, there's something coming out of the depth of his being. Only wants to do something to help them and support them in ministry. And I think that is a crucial understanding to the story. I think it's the motivation of Jesus in why he's doing what he's doing.

It's it's not just, that's do a cool miracle, that will get the people talking. This is, this is Jesus. There's something calming out of his depth of his being to both reach out to these people And heal them, but then also provide for them materially in the context of food.

David: [00:12:10] And so this, this notion you see very much an insight into a little bit of the Greek background of the writers that are writing the gospels here. Cause cause that, that, that spline, candidly, as you were saying, this, this kind of bowels in the ancient Greek world that was considered to be the place where your emotions and feelings reside.

It's quite interesting actually, over a history, you can see. Move our thoughts and this around. So then for a while we always talk about it as our heart. You know what I love you with all my heart. And then of course, nowadays, we would say, well, actually it's all happening in your brain. So we've moved up the body from the bells to the brain, but I often think it's beautiful.

Descriptive, when you do feel something, where do you feel it in the pit of your stomach, don't you? So you can understand where the ancient thinkers were like, well, the fact that when I feel love, I get butterflies in my stomach and when I feel pain, you know what, when I see something that causes me to, compassion literally means to suffer with doesn't, it it's in my stomach, I lose my appetite.

I don't want to do that. So, so I find that quite interesting that, that words there, and then one of the things that's kind of neat again for our listeners is when you've got a story it's an all four gospels. Sometimes it's sort of fun to lie them all next to each other and just see what's going on. And of course, when you do this, mark adds just a little bit more context, doesn't he?

So Jesus has compassion on them and then you get this light because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So you get the, the mark really leading into the pastoral nature of Jesus here, that these people are lost. And, and, and I don't even necessarily mean that. Hi, spiritual language in that sense of it quite literally at the very elementary level, you don't even have any food to eat.

And Jesus, the good shepherd. Can't just let sheep go hungry. So mark really ties together the metaphors quite wonderfully, I 

John: [00:13:59] Oh, it's beautiful. I think that is really beautiful. And I think it does give you an understanding of how Jesus saw it. Again, modern spirituality, modern church we may be intoxicated by just simply the sheer scale of that crowed and go, wow. Look at the crowd. That's turned up to hear our sermon or liquid, the credits rocked up to this concert.

And, and we may be tempted to be sort of, taken by the crowd and it, Jesus sees beyond the numbers and sees the sheep, sees these lost, broken people, people, it seems so. Desperate to hang on to whatever he's saying and doing that. They're prepared to like go hungry that, it's clear the whole, the whole group have run out of food.

There's virtually nothing going on it starting to get late. And and actually, Well, we don't care. This is so good. We, we don't want to let go of this. And Jesus sees these, this magnificent crowed, but season the sheep lost and that, that nuance that motif of the shepherd heart of God. It's interesting that that, in terms of the leadership motif, it is probably the number one motif. so when we think of God as our leader, as God is leading his people, shepherd comes over and over and over again, it is, it is a dramatic and glorious. And of course, Jesus himself in the new Testament was referred to as the good shepherd. He calls himself that the chief shepherd on the Grinch. this gorgeous shepherd motif, the Lord is my shepherd.

I shall not be in want. He leads me to the green pastures. He makes me lie down in those pastures and gives me a drink by the quiet waters. It's it's and there's a, if you lean into mark and then come back to Matthew, there's an unmistakable sort of nuance here of the shepherd, leading the sheep to green pastures and distilled waters, even though they're in the middle of a desert place.

And, and maybe there is a though there is a one level. These people are just hungry and literally lost in that. But there's another glorious level that, that there's a massive redemptive motif being played over here in the context of the people in wilderness, desperately needing someone to get them out of that wilderness and into the promised land.

And I think, I think there's, there's all sorts of nuances within that.

David: [00:16:34] Well, and so can I push that just a little bit, John? And then this is the sort of stuff I think is fantastic for the listener to just pay attention to some of the quirkiness of the gospel sometimes, right? No one says I want to relate to the crowd. Okay. And I think you and I both can. So I have in my life.

Find myself in a moment of study in the gospels before getting so excited by it that I've stayed up too late. Right. I don't know if you've ever had that, that I've like, I'm going to go to bed and a little while in, in truth, it happened last night, my alarm was going off, well, before Dawn this morning to jump up and do this recording and I was, I was sat with Matthew grass.

Just got to read a bit more of this because this is just so exciting. I've also skipped meals before. I know you've told a funny story in the past where you even passed up toilet breaks. So, so, so you and I can both relate to just being so encapsulated by the works of Jesus. I find myself thinking, yeah, if I was in that crowd, I wasn't going to be leaving to go and get some food I hid there.

And then you get to that moment where you're like, oh, I'm in a bit of trouble, 

John: [00:17:34] Yep. 

David: [00:17:35] but here's, ,what's interesting.  So Jesus says, I know there's humor in this, for sure. Jesus has compassion on them because they're like sheep without a shepherd.

And then enter the disciples who are almost always playing the role of you and me in this story, enter the disciples. Jesus has compassion. They're like sheep without a shepherd. The disciples wrote in the desert and it's late. Send everybody home. So the complete opposite, the complete opposite.  But not as this is a desert place. Some translation turn it to a lonely place, but, but the language is, this is a desert place and this is a, this is a deserted place.  But interestingly, before the miracle even happened, In in, in Mark's gospel and in Matthew's gospel, you see this, he says, make the crowds sit down on the grass.

And, and in Mark's gospel on the green grass, some might even tell you the color of the grass. Now, I just think there's something fascinating for any listener to say there, that your perspective of where you are. Can be so altered just by how you see things, we're in the desert Jesus and we've got no food, actually there's some grass over there actually, it's, it's not as blue and the grass is green.

So it's, it's almost like Mark's just hinting to the listener. Wasn't as bad as the disciples thoughts, but you can paint the picture of the place you're in is a desert place where nothing can happen. But actually you might just be a couple of feet from some green grass where there's actually life growth.

And I think about my own, my own life of following Jesus, how often I've considered myself to be in a really bad place. And then years later I've looked back and realized while God was doing some really amazing things in my life. At that point, my perspective was just faulty. I don't know if you resonate with that, John, 

John: [00:19:29] totally. And I think it's the, I think it's often the tension between the prophetic opportunity that's presented in a given moment and the pragmatism that you have to contend with. I think that. the staples are reacting like 99% of us would react. Just pragmatism, Hey, hold on a minute. It's getting lit.

There's like thousands of people and we need to get rid of them because there's no way we can look after that's. I totally get that.  It's a perfectly understandable, pragmatic response to a growing problem, but yet don't we see on the other side, here's Jesus opening himself up to a phenomenal, prophetic opportunity.

To do something in the remote place that isn't as bleak as maybe you think it is Peter, I'm able to do something here. I I'm able to even end the apparent remoteness of this place. I am able to provide in the wilderness, to, to lean into the word aromas. So, so I'm, I'm able to provide unaware SIS in, this desert.

I'm I'm able to lead you to the quiet waters and to the green pastures and something can happen in the remote place. If we are prepared to open our hearts to the possibility that actually the Lord can step into that and do something there. And so. Pragmatism will always militate really against the prophetic opportunity.

And, and again, I don't want to over preach that, there are certain, like we're turning this into a sermon series, but, but there's no doubt about it. If, if you just look at the, the real facts in front of you, it tends to lead you away from the possibility that something could happen beyond the natural physical limitations of this moment.

And I think this is one of those glorious clashes between Jesus and his gorgeous young disciples who are still learning to negotiate with this incredible person that they're following And that they call a rabbi or master.

David: [00:21:42] And do you even see, again, just jumping back to mark for a second and also John's gospel, both of them pick up this nuance that  like giant John's gospel 200 dinar. I would not buy enough bread for each of them to get a little, 200 dinar. I denies about a day's wages for a laborer.

So, so Jesus has sort of said to them, we're like, we're going to have to look after these people. And the pragmatist immediately goes goodness, almost a year. So half a year salary, and we're not even going to give people up a nibble. 

John: [00:22:12] yeah. 

David: [00:22:13] So, but so then, well, let me say like this, this is a story about bread in the desert.

So there's probably some resonancies going on here for the ancient Jewish reader as well. Right. And in John's gospel, the crowd definitely figure that out. They go, well, wait a minute. We've just got bread in a desert place. That's a story we know too. And to expand on that.

John: [00:22:44] Well, Yeah.

I think, again, this is where we're at a bit of a disadvantage is 21st century norm sort of Jewish readers who are having to reconnect with the Torah, reconnect with some of those amazing stories that the audience of Jesus would have been raised on. And so you get this incredible sense of God pervading for his people in the journey, through the wilderness bread manner.

And of course, throws in a bit of meat there as well with it, with the quail. But, but you get this incredible sense that on the journey to going where the Lord wants them to go, he becomes their provider. He becomes their sustainer. He's the one who will open his hand and ensure they have.

Enough and even to the point where they don't even have to gather in Sabbath just, just like, get gather enough of that. We'll cover both this. I I'm, so you've got this incredible sense of, of the Lord providing for them, leading them, guiding them, giving them all that they need for the journey they are on, on, on of course, Jesus leans into that as this incredible statement.

I'm the brand, I'm the one you need to feed off. I'm the one you need to eat off. I, I love the sort of Johanna in conclusion, which is sort of, Jesus says, ate, eat my flesh, drink my blood. And it's, it's almost as like the exits are here, here, here, here, and here. It's like Elvis has left the building as the crowd sort of make a work.

No, that's, that's not the leap we wanted to make. But, but at the end of it, you've got this sense. Have an understanding that there is a natural bread being provided, but there is a greater and deeper message being pervaded into the midst of this. And of course, I think the new Orleans of, of Moses in the wilderness with the people of God and Jesus in the desert place with the peace, with people that he's calling to the kingdom, I think that absolutely sits there.

The motif of shepherd sits there and, and the connectedness between Jesus and Moses at this point, I think is quite powerful and profound.

David: [00:24:53] And this is something that Matthew appears to be doing intentionally that stereotypically people say Matthew is a gospel that seems to have some very strong Jewish resonancies about it. It's, it's the one that really feels like he's, he's doing something with his relationship, with the old Testament, Torah and the prophets.

And you've got, you've had Jesus. On a hill or a mountain bringing round a new way of life. Moses was up a mountain you've of course. Got, Matthew got a resignations of Jesus's temptation in the desert and 40 days, 40 years of Israelites it's as if Matthew is trying to draw a certain parallels almost to create something of what you might call Jesus as the new moseys.

And. No, they all make Paul make similar points, the gospel writers do. But Matthew just seems to want to keep that a little near of the surface than some of the other writers doesn't he, but again, you do see it also in John's gospel. I think, and John even makes it explicit at some points that the people at the end of this miracle story that people want to make Jesus king by force.

And this seems to be traditions developing around the time of Jesus that when the next rescuer comes, when the Messiah comes, they'll start to redo some of these mosaic miracles for one of a, of a better term. And so, yeah. This sense of wait a minute. And if you think about it, it makes sense in the ancient world and you see this happen shortly after the life of Jesus at Masada, just outside you will, in, in the Israel area, the Romans move in to sort of quell a rebellion.

Everybody hides up into this kind of mountain fortress type area and the Romans just wait them out. That's how they did battle at the time in those days is we'll just surround your city or your encampment or your fortress, and just wait until you've got no food left. Once you've got no food left, you'll have to surrender or you'll all die.

And so there's this quite a powerful, social image going on of people go, well, wait a minute. If you can feed 5,000 people with a few loaves, you would be an amazing king because we'd be unbeatable because the Army's the NCG. They'd run out of food before we would, and there's almost this kind of humorous sense of, we could, we've got 10 loaves in here.

We'll be here for a while. So, so you can see why the crowd you go. We want rid of these nasty Romans. And now we've got a potential guy who could not only lead us with profound wisdom, but can feed us without much that, no wonder everybody wants him to be a king. And, but then you get this starkness of Jesus where he then, as you say in John's gospel says, no, that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about, can you, can you walk the journey that I'm walking fascinating and John's gospel that this miracle story leads into the closest thing to a communion moment that we have, isn't it where it sort of leads in, what can you eat my blood? Can you, you just, can you eat my flesh and drink my blood?

Can you, can you follow the way of the cross to which of course everybody goes. No and leaves. So Jesus goes, Jesus goes from 5,000 people to know people and turns to the disciples. And it's one of my favorite lines in all of John's gospel. When he turns to the disciples and Peter goes, no, we don't have anywhere to go.

And it was always like, it's always the red as this great confession of faith from Peter. But I often find myself hearing Peter's first point, which is, well, probably like to go somewhere else at this stage, because this is all a bit rough, but I, I gave up everything to follow you. Jesus. So I don't have the option of being somewhere else.

John: [00:28:33] I'm out. Of course, I love what Peter, you, you, you, you do really get the sense of humor in the story of you're prepared to push on that. But, but I do love what Peter concludes with Peter says, well, once, once he's getting over the shock of just groans, leaving and realization, he's nowhere really to go, having, given up everything to follow Jesus, he, then he then says something magnificent.

He says like, work, could we go you have the words of eternal life and a love the fact that Peter is linking, he's linking now the words of Jesus to the bread. That that not only is Jesus declared himself to be the bread of life, but Peter is now gone. No, your words are life. You're an, and, and of course it seems to be, he is maybe with the other disciples starting to grab the momentousness of, of the sort of transition are going to have to make, to be the followers of this, this brand on participate, even though they were continue to struggle with the imagery and you'll have those humorous moments, where, where they, they get stuff in and they don't get stuff, but, but I love Peter's reaction, but Lord, you, you have the words of eternal life.

And I think, again, it's that lovely idea that there is a feeding of hungry hearts here, but the aspiration of Jesus is that they will come to understand that in order to have hunger, truly satisfied, they must feed of something. Great. There's something beyond themselves feed of him, himself and his words.

And, and I really do like that Johanna and sort of reflection on that. 

David: [00:30:14] Yes, it is beautiful. Isn't it? How, how Peter gets that first realization of, oh, Jesus is not trying to build the kingdom. We thought he was trying to build a house. He had 5,000 people or 5,000 men plus women and children who were ready to go, let's start our rebellion here. And Jesus said, no, and this is what we're actually trying to do.

And they all, they all leave. Always. It's the story that always comes to my mind, John, whenever people go, wouldn't it be great if Jesus could come to your church for just one weekend, I still think you'd be careful what you wish for because his, his sermon results were pretty tragic. And so, so pushing then let's, let's just go back to the comment that I made right at the very start, because I think we're laying some of the sort of groundwork here, John.

So we've got resonancies. Of what kind of kingdom is Jesus trying to build? I think that's worth, we're going to want to come back to that certain point, but we then got this moseys echo. And, and then we started verse 13 of Matthew, chapter 14 when Jesus heard this. And so as has been our way into techs is to just zoom out a little bit and say, well, what, what, what did Jesus just hear?

Because whatever it was, Jesus heard something. And he decided to go to a deserted place by himself, but the crowd, the crowd chased him down and they weren't going to give him, but Jesus was actually trying to avoid the crowd at this particular moment in his ministry. And once we jump into that parallel, there's some really interesting nuances to sort of see what's going on again with Matthew sort of setting up a scene for us.

 John: [00:32:01] In my Bible, we have a lovely little division point between verse 12 and verse 13. It says Jesus feeds the 5,000 and, and verse 12 says, as John's disciples came and took his body that's John's body and buried it, then they went and told Jesus. So if, if our readers look at the beginning of Matthew 14, you've got there the story of the execution of John and we, it climaxes at least emotionally for Jesus, with him being told directly by the disciples of John, that John is.

Now, now remember the relationship that Jesus has. He's a relative of John. And of course John was the preparer of the way, the harbinger, the Elijah, who would prepare the way for the Lord. So, so what's really remarkable. I think on, on the first level, David, is that everything you're about to read from verse 13 onwards in Matthew, all those amazing miracles, the feeding of the thousands, the walking on the water, the people being healed.

It can Astrid all of that's in Matthew 14, it's all coming out of a moment of grief. 

David: [00:33:11] yes.

John: [00:33:12] and actually mark also sort of leans in this book. Mark talks about at this point, Jesus says to his disciples, come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest. And I'm part of that in response to some of that, some things disciples have done, but also you get the sense in of Jesus.

He's needing some emotional. I know for some of our listeners, this is difficult, but he needs some emotional reinforcement because he's just discovered that John has been executed. And so then Jesus, at one level, remarkably feeds the hungry, walks on water, heals the sick and all the while he's in a position of grief.

And I think Matthew really touches This He withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. So, so you get the emphasis that he needs to be alone. Get away from the crowd for a moment. Now, now there's a really fascinating link. I don't think it's tenuous. I think it's worth exploring. I think there's a fascinating link to Moses. So if you flip over to, to numbers, chapter 20, and what's really interested, of course, our English titled numbers in Hebrew, the book of numbers is the mid bar, which is in the wilderness. And so you've got the journey of God's people through the wilderness

David: [00:34:35] is a interesting little piece of, I often think it's just worth mentioning, as you mentioned that the way that the first books of the Torah, the first five books of the old Testament are named is all based on their first lines in Hebrew. Isn't it? So, so we talk about this book Genesis in Hebrew Genesis is literally called in the beginning, isn't it?

And numbers which is, if you read the opening bit of numbers, you might think yet to fair title, but, but numbers is, is gold in, in the desert, isn't it? So, so they all have these. So all five books in Hebrew are named after the first few words, which is quite quite 

John: [00:35:12] it's I actually, personally, for me, in my own study of the old Testament, this has really helped me. I read the first five books of the Bible differently because I think I lean into an Hebrew Hebrew understanding of why the book is written. So bearish sheet in the beginning, Shamar names for Exodus.

So as Christians, we tend to think of Exodus as the axis, but it, but it's really the calling of the nation, the names of the nation. It's, it's quite a, it's a formation of, and I think it's a slightly different way of looking at it. Although the accident sits at the heart of it, of course. And then you have Leviticus nine.

My goodness, the vertigo strikes the fear of God and to every Christian's heart when it?

comes to that, that part in our reading program. But of course in Hebrew, it's vital. And he called on the idea of, of  God calls Moses to bring something it's beautiful. It's a beautiful nuance in the first two verses of the Vegas then numbers is but mid bar in, in the wilderness or in the desert.

And then Deuteronomy in Hebrew is  words. The words that literally the last words of Moses in the last month of Moses, so really fast there. And I think there's a gorgeous connection here between an event in numbers, 20 in the wilderness and this moment. So, so that, that, let me take our listeners.

Numbers 20. They reach a place. The people start to grumble. They need some water. Moses is really fed up with the people at this point, along with his brother, Aaron he sort of has a bit of a moron to God. God tells them what to do. And numbers chapter 20 verses 10 and 11 says Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his stuff.

Now, This is a catastrophic moment for Moses. because because of this, he is prevented from entering the promised land. And you can read about that in verse 12, you can look at that night. Here's what's fascinating. David Moses, has had two previous encounters sort of with. And Exodus chapter 15, we see the miracle of the bitter water being me.

It's sweet. And then in Exodus, chapter 19, actually water does come from the rock. So this is this is the third time we've had a water moment for Moses yet his reaction. The third time is absolutely out of character to the first two. Now, why might that be? I think verse one of numbers, 20 gives us a clue.

This is where it links to Matthew 14. So numbers 20 verse one says this in the first month, the whole Israelite community arrived at the desert ASEAN and they stared at Kadesh there. Miriam died and was buried. Okay. And if you track Merriam, I mean, Merriam is a serious player in the story of Moses.  

I mean, oh my goodness. Three, three children, one becomes the teacher of Israel becomes the high priest of Israel and Miriam. We know prophesies, my goodness. That's a pretty successful experience reading. You're raising your kids. And so it says Miriam died and was buried.

And then it says the very next verse of it says neither was new water for the community. And the people gathered in opposition to Moses on our end. Now I'm gonna lean into one of my favorite authors in the context of the Torah and that's rabbi Jonathan sacks unfortunately passed away last year.

We lost a grid, a great scholar in the Hebrew text. And he says, this, this, this, this observation. And I think it's pretty. He says about Moses coming to the rock. He says for the first time Moses faces a challenge without her, without Miriam. And for the first time, Moses loses emotional control in the presence of the people.

Now hold that thought, right? So you've got Moses loses Miriam. He's immediately confronted with a crowed who needs something. They need water and food, and they're very explicit in their complaints and in numbers, 20

and, and total emotional frustration. He, he w he bashes the rock. He hits it twice. Now, fast forward to Jesus.

Jesus has just been told John is dead. He goes to a solitary place to get away from the crowd. He steps off the boat. The first thing he sees is a crowd. What does he do? He has compassion for them and you end up with a completely different reaction. So here's Moses who should have led them into the promised land and reality, being a things a bit harsh to be fair, being barred from going into the promised land because he sort of loses control here.

Here's Jesus NAI. Can I, can I use the language, the greater Moses, the substance of the shadow that Moses represents and here's Jesus on the back of a death reacting completely differently to Moses. And instead of then striking the rock and missing an opportunity, Jesus becomes himself the provision for the.

If you like the water and the food comes out of him and as it were enables him to lead them towards the promised land of freedom. No, I hope I'm not overstretching that I don't think I am. I think if Matthew is leaning into the Moses movie, if the other gospel writers are sort of flagging that for their audience and there is it remarkable at the very least Abraham markable coincidence that Moses and a moment of doubt assert breakdown in the context of the death of a relative does something that he's, he's held accountable for Jesus and a moment of emotional challenge in a desert place manages to react with compassion and bring something greater to the context.

And it could be those two ideas are connected. Certainly it. 

David: [00:41:40] Yeah. It's,  it's quite beautiful actually seeing the contrast and the parallels and How the two stories line up. And I think you see Matthew doing this all over the place. So I don't think that is a stretch to draw that comparison is definitely a sense that the, the, the people who are in this story, I mean, John's clearly picking up mosaic imagery, isn't he in his account?

So, so it's, I don't think you're far left field when you start to see these sort of parallels and think, okay, what is actually your, what is actually going on here? Are there, are there new stories being created or retelling of of this and, 

things like this might sound far-fetched when you say it, like, are we supposed to believe that Matthew's writing this with nuances of what's going on in Torah that we're supposed to pick up on this, but if you don't believe that it's always worth going over to John's gospel and John does this, so explicitly, sometimes you're like right down to how does John begin his gospel in the beginning?

And, and then he starts retelling the story. And so what you get in John one is actually a new creation story, right? So it's not in the beginning. The earth was void and formless in the beginning was the word. So it's as if John, I mean, it's stunning to think about it. He turns up to his tradition and says, no, I'm going to retell some of the most well-known pieces of our narrative and our story in our history.

And I'm going to tell it from Jesus' perspective. So once you've kind of gone over to John and got comfortable with that. What you're suggesting about Matthew doesn't sound out there at all. This is how the early Christians read the old Testament was to look for. Where do we see the story of Jesus?

Arking its way through this. And sometimes that was to go all. We can see the impact of Jesus throughout the story and other time, the early Christians thought, oh, we can see how Jesus. Adjusting the narrative arc of the story that, so, whereas it was death of a loved one to negative result. Now we've got death of a loved one compassion and positive results.

And again, good over to John's telling us the feeding, the 5,000, the people there clearly starting to make moseys links, because even at one point in that story, they literally ask Jesus, the question. So are you telling us you are greater than Moses? What if, what if Jesus has great, great social moments that often makes me chuckle when he knows how to really win a crowd offer.

And I say this our caustically when he says, well, yeah, your ancestors did eat bread in the desert and those are all dead.

John: [00:44:23] Yeah. 

David: [00:44:26] Okay. Don't take overly kindly to that obviously, but Jesus is again, you see John absolutely explicitly naming the problem for us. This was our story. This is our story, but it still ended up with the same result. Our leader was really. He messed it up and things didn't go well, we ate of God's miracles every day, but everybody's still died.

This didn't solve the problem, and then you get Jesus, Jesus has the correction and the solving of, of the cosmic problem of, of sin and evil that's going on. So if you show what the, here's why we say we know that the early Christians. Told the story of the feeding, the 5,000 like this, because we've got proof of it in John.

So to draw those parallels, I think in Matthew, where if we're right, that Matthew has a lot more Jewish nuance, I would assume that means that Matthew thinks his readers are a little more Jewish. So they, this is from Tara to right, is, what is it? The rabbis say, we take a child and we stuff them with like, and ox.

So I love that imagery, just your children are just forced fed Tara. And I don't mean that in a negative, so forced fed might sound negative, but just, we, we are in, we're immersed in it as children. So if there's resonancies to be seen that we go, maybe there's a resonance Tura there. I think Matthew's listeners would see it instantly.

The whole, I look what Matthew's doing here. This is, this is the retelling of that particular story.

John: [00:45:57] for sure. And again those links are difficult for us 21st century. Norm hip break, sort of people that are, are learning the story of Jesus and learning to read backwards into Tanakh, learning, to read forward from Jesus into the new Testament. So we are constantly learning. I mean, I am constantly discovering things in a Jewish reading of Jesus that my goodness have been glorious.

I have been shocked. I have been excited And I have been sort of slightly terrified by thinking, hold on, if I've missed that little. What else am I missing? What, what else am I not seeing? Because I'm super imposing my Western 21st century view of Jesus onto him, instead of trying to understand him in his world and how he connects some of those magnificent themes.

And, and I do love what John says in the glorious introduction to his gospel. He says, the law came to us by Moses. He acknowledges that, that, that this law, that would be a school teacher that would lead us degrees. There's this idea that, that this law came to us from Moses, but grace and truth comes to us through Jesus Christ.

And in fact, he emphasizes grace and truth twice. There isn't that striking it's, it's the combination of not just grace, but it's grace and truth. And the new wants that, that actually Jesus himself is the bringer of truth. And the truth that he's bringing is the fulfillment of the shadow of the truth that Moses brought to us in the beginning.

And, and of course this becomes a massively controversial point for the, for the burgeoning young, new ecclesia that has to grapple with con we just come to Jesus or do we have to go through Moses to get to Jesus? And, and here we have Jesus, like we've talked about in the parables Jesus superseding the temple.

He becomes the embodiment itself, destroy this temple, and I will rebuild it in three days on, on Mississippi. Well missable statement that he's the super seeding of the temple idea out, of course controversially and gloriously, Moses himself, Jesus is the fulfillment of every shadow that Moses is bringing to the table in the context of the law.

David: [00:48:33] And of course we do in modern times as well. So I like, let me just lean into my nationality for a second, but, so let me use as a Scott's person. Right. I, th many of our listeners will know regards to where they are in the world, that there are some tension sometimes between Scotland and England.

Right. And. And every time there's a little bit of a push towards Scottish independence. The imagery that gets used is the imagery of William Wallace and Robert, the Bruce you've, if you've seen brave hearts, then you kind of have a broad take on that story. Now think about what's going on there.

And I remember as a teenager,  there was a big push for Scottish independence . And and then there's even been votes for Scottish independence. But every time this happens, all of a sudden Braveheart imagery starts appearing everywhere in Scotland. Politicians leverage the stories of Bruce and Wallace, , like  centuries later, these all stories are being used in a modern time to draw connections.

So I think it's worth saying that. So that when we've come to the text and see that they're, they're drawing lines between old stories and new stories that we don't think, well, that's a bit far-fetched and ridiculous. Actually it's what humans do all the time is redraw stories and connect them to help you understand .

What they're trying to communicate, what they're trying, trying to say. So, I don't know if numbers, the feeding of the 5,000 and Braveheart I've ever been used in the same conversation before, but, but, but hopefully that draws the sort of parallel that. 

John: [00:50:10] Yeah. 

David: [00:50:11] Whenever we reach back into history to try and motivate something in the present.

We're sort of doing the thing that we're suggesting the gospel writers are doing is they're drawing links to help you understand, and also to help really what you're trying to do in that point. You say, this is the story we're in. This is the story we're part of. So in the Scottish politicians, pushing for independence came along.

What they were trying to say is this story that you grew up learning of Wallace. We're trying to finish it off. We're trying to, we're trying to put the pieces back together. If this story now, whether that's valid or not is for the, is for the voter to decide. But for us as gospel readers, each, each a very common thing to do what we are assessing the gospel writers to be doing, to be doing just here.

John: [00:50:58] I think Paul and the writer to the Hebrews they also pick up these ideas, I mean your regulations, my goodness. Hi, Paul works to knock for the advantage of this message that Jesus is bringing this, this fulfillment of grace and truth. Hi there. I mean, I know the book of Hebrews can be troublesome for some people, but it is a magnificent piece of literature that reads back into to knock and connects substance to show.

And again, it's re I think it's, it's our listeners recognizing that that actually Moses Elijah, these are shadows of something that will ultimately be totally fulfilled in and through the person of Jesus Christ and the ecclesia, the community that he will call out of the world to himself.

And we, we get, we get the gospels as the sort of burgeoning beginning of that conversation, which happens. And I, and that's why, that's why we enjoy. Leaning back into the old Testament, studying it, reflecting on it, learning from it, not abounding in it, but recognizing this was the only Bible Jesus heart.

And from that Bible, Jesus draws the glorious threads of grace and truth and the kingdom of God and ultimately the purpose of God. And in the way that Moses is called to lead a community, a holy nation and a kingdom of priests into a land of promise to establish the purpose of God. So Jesus is now calling to himself, a nation, a calling to himself, a kingdom that he will lead into glorious as it were freedom through his death and resurrection.

And of course it's, it's not just those that are. Traditionally regarded as being within the Cole group that are part of that. Now he's extending the invitation to the margins and beyond and, and becoming the shepherd, not just to one particular flock, but the shepherd of many sheep that are not of his flock.

And, and he's actually broiling them in, which is again, a beautiful journey understanding of that. 

David: [00:53:15] And so just, if we're talking about kingdom, then let me just jump into another parallel that I'm  detecting going on here. I just keeping this sort of two-step that we're doing between the death of John, the Baptist. I see that that's the heading, my Bible gives it. I feel like the merger of John, the Baptist is probably a heavier title when we would come to headings.

John there's also a part of me wants to be a little fair to the writers that, we, we talk about how do they break it? And it's now this is the story of the feeding of the 5,000. Of course, the two verses before you have John the Baptist head on a platter, John, the Baptist being varied to be fair to the English printers of the Bible.

If you don't put that heading in the feeding of the 5,000, goes from a U classification to a 15 quite quickly, doesn't it. It's no longer a children's story. But think about, think about this. , you know, I like to see party all over the place in, in, in Jesus's story, but there's two parties going on here.

Actually. You've got, they're not badged as party, so I'm being a little facetious, but you've got the party for heritage birthday. And then you've got the, this big feast that Jesus produces from, almost north food and, you've got the king Herod who even sociopolitical context of, of Jesus's world.

Nobody liked heritage. The Jewish people didn't like Herod. They felt he was a puppet king, but you even see that alluded to in the parables of the coins, don't you? That there's this illusion that when Herod was about to be made king, a delegation was sent to the Romans to try and stop this. So he's not a popular character.

You've got Jesus. Who can he be? The king? Well, the answer is yes, but not the king you expect. And now let's clash the two kingdoms together and you have heroin. He hosts a party, it's his birthday, he's expecting gifts. And the net result of this party is this barbaric. I mean, it's nothing other than barbaric moment where the person who's hosting the party wants to show off his power.

Look how much power I have. I can actually execute someone as, I mean, it's awful. It's ghastly, isn't it? That I'm going to execute someone just to show off to my party guests as to how, how much power I had enough. Right. And then you've got another part. Well, you want to see what power looks like. I'm going to feed the hungry and I'm going to have compassion on the Lonelyland loss.

Now if for me, I think there's a tension running all through all the gospels of the kingdom of God versus the kingdoms of the world. And, and even like on a very practical level, there's this sense of, the sermon on the Mount Jesus saying, I'm going to show you a new way to live. This is what God's kingdom is like, and I can't help, but see another kingdom clash going on here.

You can have the kingdoms of power that just kill and destroy for any so stark here for me, John, it can kill and destroy for no reason, a tall, right. This is, this is quite simply just a barbaric Barrack show of power. And then you get this. And I don't even like using the term of Jesus cause it's so different from, but then you get this differential of power just verses later that come from compassion and from, and compassion that is rooted in grief.

So we have Herod at the high, what does the king Herod do when he's in the best mood possible is his birthday party. He's overwhelmed by the dancing of his, of his, step-daughter it? What does he do in this sort of context? He kills someone and of course there's backstory John, the Baptist narrative kind of fallen out because John's not happy with the wife that heritage taken because he stole her from his brother and there's all this sort of ugliness.

So this kind of sex and power going on in the story already. And, but at heritage peak point, he beheads somebody for sure at Jesus he's Lewis grief. He feeds 5,000 people. Cause he has compassion on them. I mean it, we've got to see, that's gotta be there, John. Hasn't it? That there's a contrast here.

John: [00:57:26] it's absolutely stunning. It's a stunning insight , David, and I think I mean, I'm, I'm quite emotional listening to you unpack that. And And I absolutely do concur that throughout the gospels, you get this tension pull and push between the two kingdoms. And, and of course I run the glee.

Ironically, if you, if you bring the Johanna and text into it, and I'm really low even to say this, because your, your point was so magnificent, it feels like I'm just into it rather than. As it were making it better, but it's, it's it, when you go into John, of course, in this act of compassion, they want to make him king.

So, so you, you get Herod desperate to be loved by the people on, but the only way he seems to be able to relate to the people is through force through brutality, almost Roman ask behavior. And we know the Romans were slightly embarrassed by the Heronian family. One of Herod's Herod the grits sons is actually removed by the Romans because they don't like them.

And when the Romans start removing you, because you're nasty, you're pretty nasty. And they, they replaced, they put pilot in his place. So, so you, you, you get harried desperate to be low. And doing it through all the normal trappings of the brokenness of power and here's Jesus feeding the hungry and they want to make him king a day.

And you, you go, my goodness. The, the contrast between those two moments is just magnificent and it's certainly something that our listeners should take a moment or two to reflect upon. It's fantastic.

David: [00:59:10] There's a little book that I've just picked up recently, John by sky Tawny he's written this little book called what if Jesus was serious and it's, it's a beautiful little book, right? It's it's subtext is a visual guide to the teachings of Jesus that we love to ignore. And he basically works through the sermon on the Mount and he just there's little sketches and drawings in it.

And he makes these little points, but, but he has this, this one little comment where he says, , if Jesus was serious, then we will always have enough. 

John: [00:59:41] Wow. 

David: [00:59:41] And he, he picks up on something that Walter Brueggemann at worked on about 20 years ago 

  What Brighaman does is he says that the great myth appears in the Bible is the myth of scarcity.

That there's not enough and Brookman tracks it down to Joseph. Actually, he says that what you see beginning to happen is this realization, oh, there's not enough. So what do humans do? What do broken humans do when there's not enough? They start stockpiling, right? They start keeping it and you see that happen to the whole Israelite slavery thing.

It comes out of the, basically this idea that it's anonymous. And when Brooklyn says, see this throughout all of world history, that, that everything that we do as humans is often built on this myth, that there's not enough. Right. You, this is why we save money. This is why we go for bigger jobs.

This is why we buy bigger housing. That we do these things because we're like, well, yeah, but what might happen if we don't have enough? And then we start to treat each other as enemies, because we're all in competition to make sure that I've got enough. And any charity work we do is always done.

Once we become comfortable that we might have enough. We actually think about what about, what about everybody else? Brougham and says that this myth of scarcity then is ubiquitous. It's everywhere, but it's constantly contrasted in scripture by the message of God who is, who is consistently saying to everybody from old Testament first, from Genesis to revelation God's message.

There is enough. And one of the beautiful moments of proof of that is in the desert when there's Humana and quilt, like you're in a desert, nothing grows here and yet, are you hungry? No, you're not hungry. Do your clothes where I know your clothes don't wear out. And so Brigham and then starts to track this consistently.

So if you actually look at the message of Jesus, what he's constantly doing is proclaiming the abundance of the kingdom in a world. That's, that's convinced of the myth of scarcity. So think about the things that Jesus says. If you've got two coats, well, just give one away. You only need one coat. Now that will not make sense to you.

If you're convinced that there's not enough, but if you convince that there's a funded, then yeah, I can give my coat away. I can, I can share my food. I can, I can do all these sorts of things and I can't help. But again, see, you've got this abundance of Herod that you'll, He, he said this, his stepdaughter comes and dances for him and he says, you can have whatever you ask for.

Look how much I've got. And what she asks for is barbaric is the death of John, the Baptist, the disciples then find themselves in a place where all of, think about how the disciples taught. It would take, it would take almost a year's wages just to give people a tiny little, a little of something.

They immediately start to think in terms of scarcity, we don't have enough Jesus. And there's this beautiful resonance of the gospels of Jesus is with them. And Jesus has been consistently proclaiming. There is enough, there is enough to go around. And I find this, I was listening to. An environmental scientist just a few years ago in a podcast and a phone.

And he wasn't, it wasn't a Christian podcast. And I found him riffing on this idea of abundance where he'd be somebody said to him, but how do we feed the world? But how do we actually help the world eat? And he said this, he said, there is not a shortage of food in the world. He said, he said, there's a distribution problem.

But the, that he says there is more than enough food in the world that nobody should be hungry. The problem is some people are keeping too much of it and some people don't have any.  So this is where  I look at  the feeding of the 5,000 and think this is  for us today.

This is  for all time. Isn't it? It's that we see one way to read this  is that Jesus is showing us the way of the kingdom and the way of the kingdom. Isn't go into your room and practice miracles, the way of the kingdom. Isn't how can I, how can I feed 5,000 people with five rad? I think that would be wrong for us to assume that that's what Jesus is asking for us, but is he perhaps asking for us to think about the space our table?

John: [01:03:44] We, we've already reflected on some of the gorgeous

connectors back to the imagery of God, himself and his relationship with his people. And we've reflected a little bit on Psalm 23 and, and, that's often regarded as a sound that we read at funerals, which is a great tragedy for me because it's not a Psalm of death.

It's a Psalm of life, actually. It's, it's meant to be positioned at the very center of our pilgrimage. And I love how that sounds. Climaxes, you anoint my head with oil, my cup overflows, and where does my cup of her float in the presence of my enemies? So, so you, you, you get this incredible sense that actually the Lord is not only just providing, but, but the provision of an overflowing cup, the idea behind that is all that I have is yours.

I'm the host. And I'll deliberately overflow my overflow, your cup, not because I'm clumsy, but because I want you to know that everything I have here in my tent, everything I have in my theater, you have access to, I will provide you. And then, and then the Psalmist says surely then surely. And remember, he started with the idea.

Is my shepherd. I shall not be in want. So it leans in totally to the idea of the issue is not scarcity. The issue is, are we, are we willing to trust the shepherd? Are we willing to follow the shepherd wherever he leads us, knowing that we will never be in want if we do that. And of course it begins with this magnificent statement.

The Lord is our shepherd and he, and we Shung up and then it ends with surely, surely goodness and loving kindness will hunt me down all the days of my life. And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Do you know that? That's why sound 23. For me, divid forms a, a, a daily confessional practice in my life.

I literally, I did it this morning and my, and sitting in my backyard and my conservatory in the quietness of the morning, the stillness of the morning at about five minutes, past six, I spoke out, I recited this magnificent sound because I belief that he is our shepherd, a belief that we are his sheep insurers.

We will always have what we want because he is always the God who meets the needs of this people. And I think all the new Testament, a Bible worldview completely, and absolutely affirms that. And I think you're right, the, the feeding of the 5,000 plus. And the feeding of the 4,000, cause there's this cautious wee moment where the disciples were on a boat with Jesus and they get into a bit of an argument about, about the yeast and the Pharisees and, and they completely misunderstood.

And she says, well, what do you mean? What are you talking about? Or did you not see me feeding everybody? How many baskets were left over with the fives? Those are many POS and they've, they're all a completely wrong track with him. And he's saying to them, look, don't worry about bread. I'll take care of the bread.

You've got to watch for other things. You've got to take care of other issues. So the feeding of the 5,000 for me , it's not just, Hey, wouldn't it be great if we could like do that and in Scunthorpe cities   center , but there's more to this. He's he's saying to them, I am enough. I am enough. My way is enough. Okay. And if you will eat this bread, you will never go hungry again. If you will drink of my water, you will never be thirsty again.

If you will lean into me, you will be whole, you will have everything you need. If you follow my way, you will be satisfied. And I think, I think that's it glorious glorious message at the heart of this amazing miracle.  

Intro / Outro: [01:07:53] okay. So that's it for the first episode this week, our second text, this week releases on Thursday. If you want to get in touch with either office about something we said, you can reach out to us on podcast@twotexts.com. Or by liking and following the two texts podcast on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or YouTube. 

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But that is it for today. We're back on Thursday. So until then, Goodbye.