David Harvey: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm David Harvey and I'm here with John Andrews and this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries. Here every two weeks. Talking about two different texts taken from the Bible. This however has been our launch series.  Which has been bringing you a daily episode of the two of us talking about the parables of Jesus. 

 This is the final part of that season. And if you want to know a little bit more about what's coming next,  Then catch the short episode  on. June the 15th. Where John and I are going to talk a little bit about this season. That's just passed and where we're going next.  But for now, Here's the final episode of our parable season. 

And we're calling this one. We've got talents.  And coins.   

David: [00:00:55] Okay, John. So we are at the end, end, end of our series on parables and there has been lots of parables. There's still some we haven't actually got round to talk about just yet. And so now we're going to have to deal with that guilt where we lie in bed at night and sit in our offices and think, what we should also have talked about, but the lunch she's coming through and, and, and we're going to jump into some new stuff after this, but there's one parable that we haven't got to yet that I think will be one of the well-known parables as well.

It's sometimes known as the parable of the talents, sometimes the parable of the coins. But we're going to jump into it today in Luke's gospel chapter 19 and beginning at verse 11.

John: [00:01:48] Hmm. So it says this while they were listening to this, Jesus went on to tell them a parable because he was near Jerusalem. And the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear. Once he said a man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return.

So he called 10 of his servants and give them tan 10 minors. Put this money to work. He said until I come back, but his subjects hit at him and sent a delegation after him to say, we don't want this man to be our king. 

David: [00:02:33] it's kind of awkward right? 

John: [00:02:36] Yeah. 

David: [00:02:37] In this, this picks up on a strange piece that we saw a little bit in the last parable as well, where your first take on this. Is is constraint characterization of God, because, because when we hear the parable of the talents we often, or the parable of the coins and the minnows, we often hear it as well.

God is the person dishing out the, the things, but then you have this awkward little post here. So, so just like we're going to interrupt the reading of the pebble for just make a couple of kind of points in this one thing that I love John, right at the very start of this, Jesus told them a Powell because they thought the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

So we've said this throughout our season on parables, but this is this. De-stabilizing language to people thought one thing. Now I'm going to tell you a parable that probably says something different. This, this week we talked about this, this the dis dash course, the D these discourses that knock you off course.

And so Luke, he lays, lays this one, bear for us, actually like the people are thinking one thing. So Jesus teaches them a parable to make them think a different thing. Right? So, so this parable should, it's almost like a little it's got  like in movies they have this or PG, or he's got a little warning sign at the start of this parable, do not read this parable.

If you want to keep thinking the way you currently think

John: [00:03:56] Yeah, totally. And I think that's really helpful. So often when we, you read some of these parables we, we miss those little introductions because we're, we're rushing to the bit that we think

we know. So one of the dangers of familiarity and any passage of scripture is that our brains are telling us, oh, you know what this says?

So you skip bits, you jump over a bit. You assume bets are not my goodness. I that's why I think I've reflected on this before. That's why I, I'm trying to read the Bible slower and literally load because I need to stop my Breon jumping bits, which are crucial. And this is one of those, one of those powers.

So like I've been in church, I guess, zillion years, a bit like yourself. Every single time I have heard this parable preached on no one has ever referenced verse 11. Okay. So the verse that you've the verse that you've just quoted why they were listening to this. He went on to tell him a parable, why?

Because he was near Jerusalem. And the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. I've never heard that statement referenced by anyone who's preached on the parable of the talents or the minors, 

David: [00:05:16] and that's Luke telling us what it means.

John: [00:05:18] and that's exactly. And, and therefore that ships, the way we interpret. So this parable is often included.

Some people say, oh, Jesus talked a lot about money, which of course he did. And it, at least 16 of his parables are directly related to money. But of course, you've got to qualify that statement because this is a parable using the analogy of money. Is Jesus talking about money or is he using money as an example of something on to reflect the context of something?

So this actually, according to verse 11, this parable actually really isn't about money per se. Although the principles we can pick up. Absolutely. I think there are travelling principles in this, but it's not actually about money. It's about the kingdom of God and about the fact that there's confusion over a whole bunch of people.

Because Jesus is heading to Jerusalem now are thinking kingdom of God's about to appear right now. This is going to happen right now today and our lifetime. And so Jesus tells this parable. So, so whatever interpretation we're about to try and dig out about money and how to use your money and how to invest your money, or, if God's giving your talents to serve him, how you use those talents, Hey, they are all cool ideas, but that's not lose the original idea of this parable, which is about something about the appearance of the kingdom of God.

That's what Jesus is digging into here. And I think that's really important. 

David: [00:06:51] It's something that, something that I hear Tom Wright say quite regularly brilliant new Testament scholar, he left and say, you hear sermons on certain things. Like what you've just said, about investing your money and being wise with your money. And the answer often is yes, that is a good biblical principle.

It's just not what this bit of the Bible is trying to teach it, 

you know? So you're not wrong. You're just not, you're not really seeing that here.

John: [00:07:18] Yeah.

That's that's, that's what you and I might call said Jesus, rather than exit Jesus, where we're reading something in and it's not a catastrophe, it's not a catastrophe, but tactically speaking. Well, it's not really what Jesus was. Jesus. Wasn't talking here about your investment portfolio.

He was talking about something much more significant than that. Although, we can lean into the nuance if you want. 

David: [00:07:44] And so the coloring of the parable is interesting. So, Mina is about a hundred denarii and but no Matthews in Matthew's account of this pebble, he talks about talents being given out a minute is about a 60th of a talent. So it's a lot less money than Matthew's talking about, but it's a hundred in our eyes.

So a denier is a day's wages. So we're talking about three months. Salary is just dumped on each of these servants, the 10 servants get three months salary and are told, do some work with this. And I think if somebody gave you three months salary, yeah, you could, you could do some work with that, but there's two other threads just in this first little part of the parable that I just find really interesting, John.

So the one is this illusion to an actual true story. So when Herod the great died, his. His son headed off to Rome to be crowned king of Israel. And the people of Israel sent a delegation to Rome to say, we don't want this guy to be our king. Jesus. I can't. I find it very hard not to think that Jesus has just dumped out a really big political illusion in there and everybody's going, oh yeah, I know about that.

But then the second level to that, I also can't pick up the note that he's near Jerusalem at a noble, a man of noble birth, right. Fro went to a distant country to a point appointed king. And then to return, like, is there a little Jesus illusion going on in here? Jesus came from somewhere else at to this other place.

And of course, how was he appointed king in the gospel context at his death and resurrection, his enthronement, his death, John's gospel talks about that as the moment of glory, his, his return, his resurrection, I just can't help, but just think Jesus is being really clever here.

So there might be a little political illusion to, Hey, everybody you've seen this story happened before with that whole Herod thing, but there might be just a little bit of Luke being, just reminding us as well. Hey, don't forget. What's coming in a few chapters time.

John: [00:09:57] for sure. Of course what's really significant. Or David is that actually, this is the last sort of bit of teaching Jesus does before he hits Jerusalem. So, verse 28 of 19 says, after Jesus had said this, he went on ahead going up to Jerusalem. So if your illusion is right on the I, and I love that idea, then that actually a key, and this is not random.

This is, this is not just Jesus picking around them, parable about a king going some world going to a city, a noble place. And of course, Jerusalem was, was the Juul in the crine. It hosed the temple and it was a place of just desire and pilgrimage for, for every serious follower of the Lord.

So, so Jesus is about to go up to Jerusalem and he makes a solution. Absolutely. And I love the little nuance that he could be just leaning slightly into the Herodians story. Because of course the Herodians that, that Herod's family work completely here, that the only people that sort of like the Herodians were themselves, and even then there was a lot of nonsense going on and, and hatred they were really despised, absolutely despised by the Jewish people.

So no matter what, Herod there was an oxymoron, heard the grit, the motto inherited the grit try to do. He could never endear the love of the people with that. So, so I, I love this idea that Jesus may be leaning into the heritage story just to get our attention. Because, because as we're going to see  in a few minutes, that there's still probably reeling from the shock of what's happened before this parable.

So Jesus probably needs to grab their attention. And I love the fact that He sort of used as a story. We heard that story before. I'm sure he's alluding to. But of course it quickly becomes apparent. He's not leaning all the way into that story, but, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting connector.

David: [00:12:02] He knows how to tell a narrative though, as well. Doesn't he? So, we don't want this man to be our king and right. Do you want to pick it up from, from here? The very 

John: [00:12:11] Verse 15, verse 15. He said he was made king, however, unreturned home that he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money in order to find out what they had gained with it. The first one came and said, sir, Your Mina has earned 10 more. That's a serious return, right?

Verse 17. Well done. Good servant. His master replied because you have been trustworthy and a very small matter take charge of 10 cities. The second one came and said, sir, your Mina has earned five more on this master answered. You. Take charge of five cities. 

David: [00:12:52] Hmm. But it's just that, we don't want it to be king buddy was made king, however, Andrew returns there just lost Kevin fresher. We didn't, we didn't know what to do there. 

John: [00:13:06] Yeah. 

David: [00:13:07] but it's interesting, isn't it? I think this parable going back to what you set us up with the real fight for a modern reader.

And I don't know if this was true for an ancient reader, but the real fight for a modern reader is not to get lost in the economics of this are, so, so the, he returned home and he sent the servants who had given them money in order to find out. W w find out what they've done with it.

Right. And like, I think that's quite, that's quite interesting cause they then start to roll out what they have done with it. And our consumer culture, John, our economic of success obscures, the fact that what does the king actually say to the servant? And I think it's really interesting. He doesn't commend him for his return.

He doesn't commend him for his great investment or however, like we don't, we don't know what he did. He just managed to somehow take, three months salary and turn it into 30 months, salary the king, doesn't say great investment. The king, doesn't say great return. He says you have been faithful. And, and I just think that you, you were trustworthy.

You believed in me. I don't know if all those nuances could potentially be there. 

John: [00:14:21] Totally. I love that. And, and again, if you're prepared to see a bigger context and drive to this parable, then simply the idea here's your investment portfolio, make it work, get a good return on, I mean, that's a great, that's a great idea. That's a great PR I mean, we're not discouraging any of that, of course.

But if, if the parable is not actually about the Mina, then what is it about? Okay. So the minute it seems to me is the vehicle of the conversation. Okay. He, he's picking up on the fact that 10 servants are given one minute each. And what's really interesting. Of course, if it isn't, we've only got to the part of our reading where we've had to, but of course, the text tells us there were 10 servants. But the story only gives us insight into three of them. So we're not quite sure what happened to the other seven or if it's just, well, actually 

David: [00:15:22] Did they do a runner with the money 

John: [00:15:23] Yeah, absolutely. 

David: [00:15:25] I'm out of here?

John: [00:15:26] absolutely. So, so I, that, that could be just Jesus the, the economy of the story, he's just, I don't want to go through all 10 it's enough to make the point by using three, but the fact that actually he doesn't go through all 10 means the issue is not for me.

The issue is not the minute. The issue is the response of the servant and isn't there a lovely contrast or David and the reading we've done so far, there is a contrast between a servant and subject. So like in verse 13 he called his servants and give them 10 minutes and in verse 14, but his subjects hated him. So it's interesting that it's only the servants that get entrusted with something of value to the master or to the king, not the subjects in this theater, even, even within that nuance. If you read that carefully, there's clearly an implied relationship context to what the servants would be expected to do on behalf of the master.

David: [00:16:36] If this is  alluding to Jesus sees journey to the cross, we don't want this man to be our king. That is the cry of the Crow during the trial of Jesus. Isn't it.

John: [00:16:44] yeah, it is. It is. it.

it totally is. And, and therefore there's a sense in which then we're already leaning into the idea that the responsibility is on the servant. Not so much the subject. So it's the. People that seem to know who the master is, who the king is, who have a relationship with the king that are now being entrusted with this responsibility aren't held to account for this responsibility.

I think that's just that's worth just being aware of, as we're reading through  there, there's a sense in which that differentiation is made and, and I think that's important for where Jesus is ultimately going with us. I 

David: [00:17:30] Mm. And that's why I love that language of trustworthiness. Because again, so often when I hear this, this parable taught, it really does just end up supporting good investment. The parable almost perpetuates this myth, that hard work equals success. At least when I heard it, when I hear it taught regularly,  and beneficial return.

And I always I've been privileged enough to grow up in, in different parts of the world. And I grew up in, in west Africa surrounded by immense poverty all the time in a world that people worked very, very hard, but still lived in immense poverty. And it, I think it set a framework for me to realize that this myth, that if you work hard, you'll do well.

Isn't a true story. It's not the, there's plenty of people working really, really hard in the world. They're, they're not things are not going well for them. And we sometimes with daily, in a Western context, we teach this parable almost as if it's Jesus supporting, put what you've got to work well, and you'll get good rewards from it.

And that's why I hang so much on the fact that actually what the servant is commended for is trustworthiness. You trusted me, you believed in me, everybody else. They didn't even want me to be king, but you believed in me and you did something with that. And I feel like it bears repeating that point, John, but of course there is another servant in verse 20

John: [00:18:53] There isn't data. Isn't eight verse 20

Then another servant came and said, sir, here is your Mina. I have kept, it led away in a piece of cloth. I was afraid of you because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in And you reap what you did not. So his master replied, I will judge you by your own words.

You wicked servant. You knew did you that I am a hard man taking out what I did not put in and reaping what I did not. So why then, then didn't you put my money on deposit so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest. Then he said to those standing by tick, his minute away from him and give it to the one who has 10 minutes, sir.

They said he already has 10. He replied. I tell you that to everyone who has more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be keen over them, bring them here and kill them. And it's like, what? Where did that come from?

Yeah, it was all going so well up to that point then. Okay. Execution city going on there. Verse 27. 

David: [00:20:16] Like, wow. Like it's, it's a dark end to that parable, isn't it? You are, you are a hard man. He says it's very, it's very, very interesting. Even that sense of the perspectives, John, that like, if this is Jesus, that is the, or God who is the , the master in this story, it's really interesting.

The different characteristics there, your stair OSS is the Greek word, a hard person, the Jesus. Divided opinion. And Andy still divides opinion, actually. So as a Christian reading this text, you go, wow, am I comfortable with Jesus being represented? If this parable is a metaphor of Jesus, am I comfortable with that?

But actually if I step back and read the stories, this is exactly what you're not everybody likes Jesus. Not everybody liked to things they had to say. He preached sermons often think about. As a pastor of improving to preach some bad sermons in my time. And and then I think I always console myself in Jesus at the feeding of the 5,000 and in John's gospel where he does this incredible miracle and then preaches a sermon and everybody leaves.

And I always console myself in the fact that I've never preached a sermon that everybody left over. But w we almost sensed this, Jesus was misunderstood. He was misinterpreted. He was perceived to be hard to some people, he was disliked. So, so this you were a hard man. It's like, it seems really harsh, 

John: [00:21:50] W and what's really interesting there, David is that the implication seems to be that the servant behaved like this towards the Minner as a direct result of his perspective of the master. 

David: [00:22:04] Yeah. Yeah, totally.

John: [00:22:05] So this doesn't make any economic sense. So, I mean, as a servant, this is a pretty stupid thing to do economically because by, by just re-upping the money up and putting it onto your bed not only has it not gained value, it has in reality lost value. So, so, our, our stock, our money doesn't stand still. If you just put a hundred dollars onto the bed in a year's time, the hundred dollars isn't quite worth sort of, because of inflation and various other things, it isn't quite worth what you think it was worth. 

David: [00:22:38] totally.

John: [00:22:39] so actually he's, he's his actions have not just not increased the value they have D valued the masters investment and, and the issue is, well, I understand you're a hard man and I was afraid of you you clearly get harvest from what, what you don't.

So, and therefore, so his view of the master is the thing that is determining his behavior. And I think that's an important nuance there. And isn't it interesting then that the master. Responds with language. That is exactly the opposite of the first servant. He calls the first servant trustworthy or good.

You're a good servant. You're a trustworthy servant. You've been, you've been good untrustworthy. This one in verse 22, he says you wicked servant really, really like strong language around that. You are wicked. No. Why is he wicked? 

David: [00:23:45] yeah. Paneras is an evil, 

John: [00:23:47] yeah, absolutely really strong. So, so like for me, I'm, I'm thinking, okay.

What's, what's so wicked about that. What's the wickedness that's going on here. And it seems to me, the wickedness is two things. One, your view of me is wrong. And in fact, I'll judge you. By the very words you've used against me. And then that view has caused you to not treat appropriately the investment they've put into your heart. And that seems to be, what's, what's wicked here, your view of me, and then your behavior of the investment I give to you. 

David: [00:24:38] He does. He does nothing. And that's the really stark moment. It's not even that he does bad things with the money that he does nothing with the money. And there's almost this sense. And I feel like there's a, there's a very contemporary warning in this, I knew you were wicked and essentially a thief is what, he's, what he accuses the, the master of isn't it.

And it strikes me how easy it is to perceive justice or to perceive injustice. So this, so this man has thought, I don't think this King's a good person. I think there's no woman is a, a good, I don't think he is a noble man. And like what he does. I think he's unfair. I think he's injust. And my response is I'm going to do nothing about that, but and that's quite.

That's quite a common feature actually to, to get to the point of observing something you don't like, and then not doing anything about it, having an opinion about something and doing something about you're quite different. Aren't they? And I just wonder how much of that's what's going on in this, in this parable, is this, is this sense that it's the inaction?

He didn't do anything. And then I find it it's a little disturbing John, I'm going to, I'm just putting out there. It's a little disturbing the master. Doesn't say it. Look at it. Look at the text, right? You wicked servant. You knew you that I am a hard man taking out what I did not put in and reaping what I did not.

So. You kind of expect given that Jesus or God is the master Jesus or God, the father is the master. What you kind of expect is you wicked servant. How dare you accuse me of taking out what I didn't put in. And, but he doesn't deny. It's almost as if yeah. You called me right on it. So why did you act the way you did that?

It's really strange, disturbing little aspect of the parable. Isn't it. To just throw that sort of negativity in there. Now I do find myself wondering how much this feeds into this theme of the behavior of God, depending on what rules you think God should play by the behavior of God's not going to look right.

It's going to look, I think, I think that's wrong. The Pharisees are constantly chasing Jesus around. Go, no, no, no, you can't do it like that. People are constantly criticized. Jeez, good. Don't hang out with those people. Don't go to that party's house. Or, and, and, I feel like, the whole context that's going on around this is leading into that as well.

There's a lot of judgment about how Jesus behaves and then you, you just get this sense of how the parable now starts to leak into Jesus actual journey. It's, the parable blends out, doesn't it into Jesus is on his way to Jerusalem and there's, death is coming it's on its way to us.

Does that make sense?

John: [00:27:33] Yeah, totally. And I think it, the reaction of the master to, to him and saying, oh, you, and you did, you did, I'm a hard man, tick you note what I didn't put in and reaping what I did not. So, and I think the apparent lack of push back on that view is, is in fact, it may not be simply because your view of God is right, but actually it's, it's the fact that if that view of God is right, then why didn't you even put the thing in the bank and earn some interest?

So in other words, even your view of God is a contradiction to how you've actually behaved ultimately. So if, if I thought my goodness, my master is like a tyrant at the very least that I would do would be enough. To sort of, he doesn't like beat me or he doesn't give me a hard time or he doesn't like throw me into the cellar or something.

So, so even if I didn't like my master or respect my king, if, if he's given me something to do, the very least I'm going to do is keep him on side. What's really in. And I think what's, what's on spoken here, but I think powerfully nuanced is the complete arrogance of this servant. So this is a servant that doesn't just have a view of the master.

That's fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their view of what the keen is like. Everyone's entitled to their view of what God is like or not like, or Jesus or that you're not like, but it's the arrogance of, well, even if you think is a complete tyrant, here's the deal. He handed you three months worth of salary.

And said, see what you could do with that. See if you can make a little bit of money with that and see what sort of see where that goes. So at the very least then use that appropriately, that the servant's lack of response is not just a boat. Well, you don't really, you don't really deserve this because you haven't invested properly, but it's also a reflection of his arrogance towards the king. And that he's essentially saying I, I don't want to do this for you. And actually I don't even care what you're going to do with this. I, I really don't care. There's an arrogance that is producing a catastrophic apathy or groaned. This Minner that the master, the king has given to him. And I, I think that's what ultimately Jesus is leaning into as we're no pushing towards.

Jerusalem. 

David: [00:30:22] I thoroughly agree with that, Johnny. It's the inaction. It's a lack of integrity. You see one thing, but you're not doing something to connect to that. And the king seems to be. You're relatively, like, I want to use the word pragmatic. Part of the reason why I want to use the word pragmatic is that word, the Greek root of that word appears in the, in the parable find it.

What have you gained with it? It's a prag pragmatic TMI. It's, it's where we, it's where we get that term from. Isn't it, do something advanced something, make it work. And there's almost a sense of which that, again, leaning in the blank space of the parable, if the king likes the faithfulness of the servant, I, I'm also wanting to caution people against assuming that the success is the significant part.

I think the trust is the significant part, the servants problem that isn't laziness or failed economics, but it's a failure to trust the king, right? It's it's a failure to. Ironically enough, his accusation towards the king is you took what you didn't. So was exactly what the servant has done. He didn't earn this.

He did, and yet he had it and he did nothing did it. So his fear of the king at some level has stopped him to be trustworthy. He's failed to act in faith, but there's also just that sense of, I just, the king wants trust. So I I've, I've sometimes ran scenarios in my head about this parable, which is one sense, ridiculous.

Cause it's it's a made up story by Jesus, right. But if the servant comes back and says, I took the one minute that you gave me. And I heard about this casino on the outside of town that had a faulty roulette wheel. And so I took the Mina and I bled, I bet everything on black and they'd fix the wheel the night before and I lost it.

All right. You almost get the sense that the serve, the master would go. A good effort. I see, I see what you're trying to do. We assume that his it's his lack of return. That's the big problem, but it's his lack of faithfulness. It can. So is it even possible to take the minute and lose it in an attempt to do something good?

And the king might be okay with that? He might actually not be so bothered about that. Now, maybe I'm stretching it, John, but I feel like it's there in the parable or at very least, it's not at very least the assumption that you have to get a good return is what's required of you. It seems to me that all that we get from the parable is be faithful with what's being given to you.

John: [00:33:07] Exactly. And I think, I think we are liberated from the good return scenario when we realize it's really not a boat, the return on the Mina. It's, it's really about your response to the, to the king, to the master And actually doing something that will enhance or please, or help him because ultimately the servant.

The servant's job is to serve the master, serve the king. Now I'm sure every good master in king wants to be liked by their servants, but ultimately it doesn't matter if you don't like the king or don't like your master, don't like your employer. You can still serve them appropriately in that context.

And, and Paul's has a lot to say about that in the very difficult context in the new Testament. But it's, but it's this, it's this sort of idea of the master has entrusted you. What have you done with that trust? And I think that that's the real issue, not, not the returns, but what did you do with the trust?

And again, if, if I've no problem with, pastors talking about this as a sort of a, a new wants in investment and return and, and making sure you invest in what you've got, probably like, it's cool. I get all of that. I think that's an economic principle right across the earth. So we get that, but that's not what Jesus is leaning into here.

Jesus is not talking about making money. He's talking about what have you done with the trust that has been given to you? No, no. So, so let me, let me ask you to hold that thought, David, and then through this beautiful idea, and we we've loved to try and connect our parables backwards and forwards. So is there anything in what happens before the parable.

Or after the parable that informs the parable. And of course there seems to be David. And I don't know if you agree with me on this, but of course, Luke 19 starts with the story of . And again, we've touched on some of this in different things that we've done, and the amazing story of care's chief tax collector, Jesus invites himself to his house.

CKS ends up becoming a son of Abraham and then this beautiful climactic statement firsthand for the sort of man came to seek and save that, which was lost. Now my Bible translators. So put a beautiful little heading in between verse 10 and verse 11, which is one of those can I set as humbly as possible catastrophic insertions into the text?

Because verse 11 says so firsthand for the son of mine came to seek and see of which was lost verse 11 while they were listening to this. So David here, here's the thought? Absolutely. Here's the thought I'd love you to pick up for us and for our listeners is it seems like, hold on. We've just had a tax collector impacted by Jesus.

Who's talked about giving his money away and repaying the debts and making restitution blah-blah-blah and the kingdom of God has come to him. And then Jesus, why there lists why the relief from the shock of the chief tax collector becoming a follower of Jesus, he launches into this parable, his last parable, as he's about to go to Jerusalem for you, David, is there a link there between this a care story and the parable.

of the, of the minutes. 

David: [00:36:56] I think when you're reading your Bible, it's always worth remembering, and this might sound really off, but  the headings, the chapters and the verses are all put there by.

Bible printers to help you find your way around and thank goodness for them, because sometimes, the original text was written with no punctuation, no spaces and all encapsule letters. So if I said to you, let's go talk about Zacchaeus. You'd be scrolling up and down through your scroll for a long time, trying to find it.

So on the one hand, both you and I are saying the same thing, these things are helpful. However, it's always worth having just in your mind, they're not original. So I would say to somebody, whenever you encounter a chapter change or a heading change, it's just worth. We're reading a couple of verses on just to see, do I think Luke or John or Paul wanted me to stop reading at the end of that?

Right? And so if you actually imagine, let's just do a thought exercise. Imagine going back to the original manuscripts of this with no punctuation, no headings, no chapter titles. So Jesus says to the crowd at Zacky as his house today, salvation has come to this house because this man too is a son of Abraham for the son of man came to seek and to save the lost.

And as they were hearing this, Jesus added a parable because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought the kingdom of God was going to fear it once. But like, and, and it's interesting that the Greek chorus is it's translated. He went on to say, the Greek seems to be literally, the Greek says hearing, they heard this.

And he added and said so, so Luke very much is pointed to the fact that this is all part of the same conversation. So, so, so now I want to connect that with something. So, cause let me do this. This parable is not about money we've said, but you can kind of talk to about money, but then at the same time it kind of is about money.

I don't think it's about investment or return or reward. I think it's about trust. So, so you didn't try, he says the master to the servant. You, you didn't, you weren't trustworthy now. Imagine you're just hearing Luke for the first time. We've just seen a tax collector trust Jesus. And what did trusting Jesus look like for Zach?

Yes. You had to give away all of this money. So here's where I would say if there is a theology of money in Luke 19, I think it's a deeply rooted, biblical theology of money. And, and this is how I'd frame this, John. And a lot of times when we talk about money in the context of Christianity and in the context of church, and everybody's been in church that Sunday, though, the pastor is going to talk about giving today.

I think that Christian should never start by talking about a theology of giving where they should start is with the theology of receiving because the parable points that out. And this is, I think this is how Zach is able to make the decisions that he makes. Once you understand that everything we have is God's, it now puts us in the right place to, well, I've said it like this before.

In other context, John, if we begin with the theology of giving it, seduces us into believing that what we give to God was ours to begin with. But the, the problem that the master has for this wicked servant said, it wasn't even your money. There was no risk to you. There was no threat to you. All you had to do.

We do something with it and because it was my money and I gave it to you, you said, do something with this. And so you get this sense, like I've got echoes of Psalm 50 John, maybe rattling around a little bit in my head where, where God says to, the voice of God in the Psalm is, I don't need a bull from your stall or a goat from your pen because every animal of every forest and every cattle on every hill is mine.

God's like, I know every bird in the mountains. I know every insect in the field. And then I love this line in Psalm 50 verse 12. Isn't it. If I was hungry, I wouldn't tell you because the world is mine and everything in it is beautiful imagery. But the point is that we get into this place. I think, I think it's our human position that we are primarily givers.

When the Bible says, no, you are primarily a receiver. And, and so a theology of giving comes to this parable and reads it as investment in return. A theology of receiving comes to this parable and sees it as a call to be faithful are called to be faithful. That's in the shadow of a real story about Zach.

He is doing exactly that is that he says, okay, I'm going to meet Jesus. Well, this is what I then now do. And that requires huge trust from Zacchaeus because my suspicion is he structured and built his life around the way that he was doing things. And now his encounter with Jesus has changed that. So I is a very long way, John, for me to say, I really fully agree with that connection there.

And I think the connection is more than just a literary one. It's a connection that has profound implications for how we think about  who we are and how we engage with the world around us.

John: [00:42:21] So good. So good, David David could, so can I press into this connection a little bit further because I absolutely 100% agree with you. I think there is a beautiful, the fact that Jesus, for example, launches into a parable with money as his main vehicle sitting in the host of a man who has tons of it.

I don't think that's a coincidence. So I think there's a clear, I mean, it's a bit of humor going on there. It's it's, he doesn't start talking about sheep and farmers. He talks about money cause he's sitting in a wealthy man's house, which is so clever. Really it's so brilliant. In that, could I lead into another area then of receiving and giving, which may be a suitcase connection into this parable.

Now this may be a stretch, so feel free to push back on me, but what we've just seen an outsider as it were. We've seen someone who's been excluded, brought in to the family of God now called in fact, a son of April. I mean, this is a first century world. This is platinum language. This is gold-plated language, right? 

So he's now son of Abraham and then Jesus launches into a parable where servants are given some stuff and trusted with it. some who are trusted with it, use it well. And some who are trusted with it actually ultimately lose it. No, no, I don't want to push this too hard, but could that also be leaning into again, the connecting thought is the kingdom of God. So Jesus tells the parable because they were near Jerusalem and people thought the kingdom of God was coming. So, so could, could there be a case for saying. That there are some of you who have been interested. Could it be too bold to say, even as a nation, we have been entrusted with God's minors and we are expected to take God's generosity and investment to us as a people or to individuals, and then invest that into our world.

But if we don't take the trustworthiness of the master and invest it, then the investment will be given to those who will give it away. So here's this a Ks sort of doing kingdom. Right Jesus is about to head up to Jerusalem where Luke's chronology takes us straight into the temple. We have, the whipping of out of the temple, we've got the tables being overturned. Jesus on a 100% collision course with the powers that be in terms of the religious community and the fate for the heart of the nation, right? There is Jesus is this big because this is a parable, but the kingdom is Jesus saying actually those that have been entrusted, but haven't used that trust.

What you've got could be about to be taken away from you and the minor will be entrusted to someone who will use it for the glory of God. Is that, is that too far of a stretch for you? Or do you think that there, with the two bits of that tax being put together. 

David: [00:45:49] Yeah,  I think that you have to,  feel some of these resonances in there. There's, there's definitely, I'm reminded of a story. John of we were, we were having some teaching on generosity in the church that I went to. It's going to be coming up for 20 years ago. And I was having a drink with a friend one night, but he was laughing at what happened.

So his daughter was in a school and how they paid for dinner in their school was that the kids had like a, like a card, right? Th th the school gave and the parents would go online, add money to the card. And then, the child then bleeps that card  at school cafe. And they 

John: [00:46:29] yes, I remember it. Well, David, I 

David: [00:46:31] So he so he loads up his daughter's card and he's trying to teach his teenage daughter some management skills. So he loads her up her car to the start of the month and says, you've got to make this last free school dinners for the month for you. So she comes to him in the middle of the first week and says, dad, I need you to reload my card.

And he says, what do you mean? I need you to live reload by card. He said, you had to months had a months money on the card. And, and it's only the first week. And she's yes, but I was thinking about the sermon in church on Sunday, but generosity. So I bought all my class lunch

and, and we were laughing about that. And I was reflecting on that as it was reading this parable a 20 year old story. And I thought I actually, his daughters sometimes grasp the point of the story that she wasn't her money. It was her dad's money and it was a dad's responsibility to feed her. So it was actually very easy for her to give that money away.

That's I think what's going on in this power. It's not your money. So I might even, I might even just avoid the word, invest from the hall Lang's cause investment gets sauteed up in the language of return and actually that the call of God, upon the grace given to us is just to give it away. Right? So interestingly, Zacchaeus is a model of this parable because Zacky has, has all this money, right?

It's not hairs, it's come to him through other sources. In fact, like, it's hard not to see the language of, you took money that you didn't,  the accusation that, that is made, that you, you, you took out what you didn't put in and reaped what you didn't saw. I mean, that's gotta be what people say about tax collectors, right?

So, so you've got the shadow of this, this. Dodgy character and nobody likes a tax collector at any point in history. I actually think that's fair to say poor people. And the, the, so you've got this, this dodgy tax collector, he gives it all away because he realizes it's not mine so I can give it all away.

There is a sense that if, if the master comes back and says, what did you do with my one minute? And the guy goes, I just gave it all away. I went round all of your, all of your your subjects that owed you money. And I paid off their debts or something that there's, there's, it's not an investment, but they're not there.

I had to put it to work. What type of work he put it to put it to the work of the kingdom. So I'm actually convinced that has, is modeling exactly that thing, that, that I'm just going to give it away. Nobody's looking at them. Well, that's a clever investment strategy. No, it's completely the opposite. And yet that identified as trustworthy.

That's identified as faithful. So now I think if I was, if a podcast had video to it, John, I draw this out and I draw it out as a sort of triangle of history. So starting with the widest point of the triangle, narrowing down to it, to the narrowest point of the history at the beginning of the story of Abraham, God says to Abraham, I am blessing you so that you will be a blessing to all the nations.

So that's the widest point. What's God's vision for Abraham is massive, right? All the nations of the earth will be blessed through you, like think how huge that is, but then the story of scripture. That gets narrower and narrower and narrower, in, in the old Testament, the light of the world is this blessed people, the people of Israel, this blessed people who are supposed to be shining this light to draw all the nations to the true God.

Right. And, and they just, they get in the whole storage, narrows and narrows and narrows and narrows and down until you're at that very point of the triangle where you find Jesus. And by the time we get to the gospels, Jesus is the light of the world. What was supposed to be this whole group of people it's become one person.

But I love that. What we see in Jesus's ministry is he tries to reopen that gap back up again. So then you start drawing the triangle the other way round again, Jesus comes back and he's saying, no, no, no, we, we have a plan here. It's the same plan that we've always had is how do we bless the world? But if you go right the way back to Abraham, God, doesn't say to Abraham, Abraham, go and bless the world.

And then I'll bless you. God says, Abraham, I am blessing you so that you can go and bless the world. This, this master comes to the servants and says, here is your Mina put it to work, right?  so at one sense, this is why I talk about theology of receiving the Christians followers of Jesus, anybody that wants to try and track with the following G of Jesus.

It's easy seeing huge inverted commas, but it's theoretically easy to live generously. Once you accept this not mine, right? Everything I have is a gift, everything I have, I have received from somewhere. And if I can rewire my brain to realize that it removes, I become my friend's daughter, Gwen, I'm just going to buy lunch for everybody in my class, because it's because I know I've got some backing back there at home who will bail me out.

If I give too much away, I think. It's insane, but beautiful. All at the same time. If you read the Zack your story and go, that makes sense. I think you've missed the story. Like this is a minute story that Jesus, Jesus comes to a guy and it goes out, okay, I'm just going to give away. And if you do the maths, I don't know where Zach is going to get the funds to give all this away because he's, he's, he's not got enough to give it all away.

It feels like the encounter with Jesus has, has driven that. So, which is why for me, the kingdom of God is not coming all at once as everybody's thinking, but rather how we're going to live out this generosity in trust in God is going to be key because we're going to have to hang on while God's doing his work.

So that's, I think that's how I would try and tie all of that together. John.

John: [00:52:26] makes all sense to me. And I think for me, it, there's a lovely sort of practical nuance that actually this can dig literally into my money. It can dig into how I practically live my life, because everything I have, God has given me, but also then big picture for me, I'm thinking about, hold on, I am a recipient of God's blessing.

I'm a recipient of this covenant. I'm a recipient of this Greer. So I'm a recipient of this kingdom. And therefore I mustn't hate it under the bed. I mustn't keep it to myself, but I'm called to give it away called to invest. I mean, in the, in the best sense of the word, invest it into my world and, and do that.

And, and I think. If there, if there was a deeper eschatological conversation, which is an uncomfortable one that ultimately, if the servant won't put the money to work, then the master will give the money to someone who will put it to work. And I think there is a subtext there where Jesus is leaning into his own world.

And he's saying, listen, you have been given serious Minner here, you. I said, people, we have been given the Oracles of God as a people. We have been given the coffin of the Viet Abraham as a people we've been given the Torah through Moses. So we need to make sure we're not burying the Torah. We're not burying the light of God's message under the bed and a blanket, but we are sharing that.

And, and I do think, and this is, I think this is still continues to apply for us. There's a sense in which, and if we don't. Share it, then it could be, it's going to be given to some people who will share it. And I think that's the, what feels like the harsh ending to this parable. It feels okay. Take that off and give it to the mom with 10.

But, and even the server's going, hold on. He's already got 10. Yeah.

But I know he can be trusted with another Mina because he's proved his trustworthiness. And it's an ultimately the comment of the kingdom that isn't going to appear all at once. It's going to depend on people who are going to carry that kingdom, going to go on to take that kingdom to the ends of the earth.

And if we're not prepared to take that kingdom than the masters prepared to go, okay, I'll take that off you and give it to people who will share that kingdom. and I think there's a. I, I think that's a very deep, uncomfortable subtext to this conversation about the kingdom of God and the 10 towels and the, and the 10 minutes

David: [00:55:20] and there's a beautiful invitation in it to the way of Jesus though. Isn't there. There's, there's an invitation. To everybody, I think at this level,  if you look at the Zacchaeus story, he sees Jesus, he encounters Jesus, Jesus says, let's, let's eat together. Zakiya says also I want to give away everything that I have.

And then at the end of all of that, Jesus says, well, salvation has come here. There's an invitation. I think here to say, this is the way of Jesus. And if you want it to be parts of it, you can be part of this incredible conduit of blessings. Incredible sense of how do I now reshape my life where I'm primarily a receiver and I'm primarily in, in my role in life is to help transition, blessing to other people.

And that can be in how I live. Like we got to move this beyond just money. Like you can be a conduit of blessing through your words, through your behavior, through your actions, through your kindness. This is all part of shaping the kingdom world that Jesus imagines. And I would be as bold as the St.

John, you don't even need to be following Jesus to begin to step into the way of Jesus and test it out and see that it works. Or you can take that conduit, put a big plug in the end of it and go, I'm going to try and keep as much of this for myself. And Jesus seems to be saying, that's not the way to live the best life.

That's not the way to construct your way of being, because what happens is it will overload on you and you'll end up losing everything in the process. So I'd be as bold as to say that that Jesus is describing a deeply rooted sense of how the world actually works. That if you look at it in microcosms, it might look like you can keep all of this stuff for yourself and do really well.

But of course, the old adage, you can't take any of it with you, and Jesus seems to be saying, or like, zakky is, you can try a different way of living a way of living that says, Hey, what if all of this is just passing through through me? It's just passing by me and therefore, no that it's just passing by me.

I'm just going to help it on it's way and enjoy, enjoy the view as it passes through. No, and I think there's something profound in that, about reaching into not, not simply. So the way of Jesus is about what happens with your eternity, but the way of Jesus is about how you live now. And you can join that way of Jesus whenever you want, just by deciding, Hey, what if it's not all mine?

What if I don't have to keep it all? What if I don't even have to worry about keeping it all? Like, I think that is hugely hopeful. And then John, just to step back for a moment here we are after like three weeks of talking about parables and three weeks of people listening to about parables, notice that the same thing so appropriate to end with this one, the same thing constantly.

You're a receiver, you're a receiver of grace. You're a receiver of mercy. You're a receiver of answered prayers. You're a receiver, have a seat at the table that you didn't earn. You're a receiver of a, of a shepherd who would look for you a father who would wait for the end of the road, like you're con w we're seeing this big theme of the grace of Jesus, whether it's the harsh parables or whether it's the insane parables, there's this constant thing of just remember that you are, you're on the receiving end of this incredibly generous God.

And then where we end is. And so why don't you just open up. If it's all coming in through your front door, maybe just open up the back door and let it out as well . I just think it's really beautiful. The way all kind of hangs together.

John: [00:59:15] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that Jesus himself is the embodiment of that. And he is one coming to demonstrate that actually, what has been entrusted to me, I'm going to give, I'll give freely, I'll give to everyone the good and the bad the wicked and the righteous all are invaded unless they want to be.

Uninvited. And, and this is what the kingdom of God is like. And of course, I think there is within this parable, a responsibility of those who claim to be part of this kingdom to share it, to give it, to bless the world with it, to not hold on to it for ourselves, but to ensure that whatever has placed in our hand, in terms of the analogy of the Minner, whatever is placed in our hand to use it all for the glory of the king, for the master, so that everything we are, and half is ultimately invested in his eternal glory and his kingdom.

And I, and I think if we can grasp that and live in that, and I think we, we are starting to grasp and understand the power of the kingdom as Jesus both taught it. 

David: [01:00:39] Hmm. . And that seems to me  how God starts to build this incredible picture of justice and the kingdom. That pretty much all of the parables are about. Some of them say they're about the kingdom. I think they all are about the kingdom.

 David Harvey: [01:00:58] Okay. So that's it for the first season of two techs. Thanks so much for listening. And we do hope that you've enjoyed all of these episodes. If you want to know a little bit more about what we're doing next. We've got a short episode releasing on June 15th, where John and I are going to reflect on the season. That's just passed and look ahead to a new season, which is going to be launching on June the 22nd. 

But if you want to get in touch with us between now and then reach out on podcast@totex.com or by liking and following the two techs podcast on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and also YouTube. If you enjoyed the season, it really would mean a lot to us. If you could leave a review. Wherever it is that you listen from, and please continue to share the episodes, catch up with the episodes perhaps that you've missed. We know that there's been a lot of them. 

Don't forget. However, you can listen to everything we've done. Uh, to tex.com or wherever you get your podcasts from, but that is it for this episode and this season,  we'll be back again on Tuesday, reflecting on this season on the parables. Before we launch into our new season on June the 22nd. But until then, Goodbye.