David Harvey: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm David Harvey. I'm here with John Andrews. And this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries. Here every two weeks talking about two different texts taken from the Bible. This however is our launch series. Which is bringing you a daily episode of the two of us talking about the parables of Jesus. 

This is episode 15. And it's called the widow 

John: [00:00:37] So David, I I'm excited today with our parable series. Cause we're jumping into what I think is a gorgeous, unique parable of Dr. Luke and in my Bible in the headings that the translators have given me, it's the parable of the persistent widow. I think Jesus has a bit of a soft spot for widows. I suspected by this stage in his life, his mother is a widow.

And it's really interesting to me that every time he references a woman or even a widow in his stories, she's always like a bit of a hero figure. And a, this seems to be no exception. This is a gorgeous, gorgeous little parable but packs a bit of a punch. So it's, didn't look at teen. So do you want to read the passage for us and take it away? 

David: [00:01:21] let's do it. So Luke 18 and a verse one says then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said in a certain time, there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea grant me justice against my adversary.

For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, me, even though I don't fear God or care what people think I can't, because this widow keeps bothering me. I will see that she gets justice so that she won't eventually come and attack me. And the Lord said, listen to what the unjust judge says and will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night.

Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice and quickly. However, when the son of man comes, will he find faith on

John: [00:02:32] I love that. I love the audacity of Jesus in creating this almost constant, especially in the gospel of Luke. We see it a lot, this juxtaposition, this steer, this reversal the contrast and comparison. So you've got this sort of wicked Judge, who's got all the power and you've got the disenfranchised widow who comes out sort of as the hero in the story.

I just love that. And I think it's not only the Jesus is I think having a conversation with us about actually he's challenging the big status issues of his world, which we have reflected on

numerous times in our parable series, he is stripping away at all that stuff that people believe at a status level is important.

And even a reflection of God's generosity and grace in our lives. But I think also at a really humorous sense, I think it leans into the crowed. I think the crowed love this sort of story. The crowed love the fact that here's a widow. And the judge gives into her because he's afraid of sort of getting a black eye from her, a sort of a a mauling from her because she is completely relentless.

And, and a lot of, again, that juxtaposition and it's interesting. If you read on, in, in chapter 18, Luke sort of puts together a number of beautiful stories of Jesus, the Pharisee and the tax collector, which of course we've touched on before the little children and Jesus from verse 15 onwards. The rich ruler.

Again, we have touched on that before. And then you've got Jesus predicting his death and in the passage finishing with the story of the blame baker, who won't be shut up. And it, and it's really interesting in all of those stories. There is a sort of a status reversal dynamic, and every one of them, Pharisees tax collector, children, powerful, rich ruler as a follower and being turned away, even Jesus sufferings.

The fact that he's the son of man and he's having to suffer. And then the blind beggar who should be shut up and excluded, who ends up not only getting included, but completely radically healed as well. And it's a beautiful little idea that that is continuously introduced to us in, in those parables.

When would you agree to that? 

Would you see that in the parable of, of the widow 

David: [00:04:51] Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I'm glad you want to talk about that because  the two characters are so fascinating  and like you say, it's not a one-off I think if it was, if it happened once, if the rest of Jesus's parable, we're, one  said to the other Pharisee, a priest of Levi and the lay man, went into a bar.

If all of his parables fit into the norms. You kind of go, this is a bit weird. I can't make much of this when he seems to consistently do this and I can't help, but mention John that when you turn to chapter 19, you have Jesus having dinner at a tax collector's house. Right. so here's where I would sit with that, John. I think that in Luke's gospel,  everything is programmatic. So by the time we arrive at this  judge and I'd love the comedy of the judge as well, by the way, he was just like, oh, I don't fear God. Or people actually said it to himself, but this contrast of the judge and the widow.

So let's just roll back with me for a second. And, I know that you love Luke's gospels. So this is, I feel like I'm, I'm teaching my granny here cause you're the Luke expert, but here's where I see it. Right. In Luke chapter four, when Jesus is in the synagogue and he opens his first sermon notice, notice what he, what he does, the list of people, the blind, the poor, the prisoners, the captives.

These are not the people that are first in line, but Jesus says here I've come to I've come to let them out. The Cody, when the kingdom of God is here, when the people at the back of the line. Or at the front of the line before the people who are normally at the front of the line, then Le roll one chapter further back, John, the Baptist appears and he starts to talk about what, how are you going to know Jesus is coming?

And he starts riffing off Isaiah. And so he has valleys will be filled. Mountains will be made law so that all people can see salvation. So this gap  of, the judge in the widow is brought to a level playing field. And then of course, like I then roll back to chapter one and Jesus, his mother's phenomenal moment in the Magnificant chapter one verse 52, he has brought down rulers from their Thrones, but has lifted up the humble.

He has filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away empty. So if you just take the parable. That we're in today as a standalone. Okay. Fair enough. Interesting. Right. And if the rest of Jesus's parables were about, two Pharisees and this ad you see, or something like that, maybe, but I think when you step back and sort of 40,000 feet look over Luke's gospel, instead, what you see is that this is a pattern.

This is a pattern of the, of the antihero, the, in fact, in both of these characters are interesting and are powerful. An unjust judge. I mean, Jesus clearly never went to preaching school, where like it's like, Jesus, you're not really supposed to take. An unjust judge and use him as a, so I'm going to tell you a story today about God, there was this crook you're supposed to only use metaphors of God where he's really good, but not Jesus.

He's like, well, he compares God to an unjust judge is it's very, it's slightly disturbing to begin with. And then, and then as you say, you get this widow that comes in. So that has sort of pattern that you're picking up. John, I think I'd be as bold as to say that is Luke's pattern that he wants you to see.

He's the only gospel writer that gives us Mary's Magnificat, there's, I mean, that's the Magnificat is the Latin name that's given to this piece. If you ever go to church at Christmas, you hear it, you hear it sung in the high church traditions, don't you, but I think it's setting the pattern for what Jesus is going to do throughout.

So it should be no surprise to us then that his parables even subtly, even when the parable is not necessarily even trying to make a point about that, all of a sudden you get a widow and she is. The key character in this, in this story. And so, so these two characters are fascinating. Aren't they

John: [00:08:54] totally, and your little freeze at the end, which are things Brill, even when the parable is not really about that. It's almost like Jesus has created a subtext constantly. Of status reversal of seeing the contrast in these positions in society. And it's not so normal in his conversation that that actually sometimes you don't even notice it so much.

It's just because, because our, our eyes are drawn to that, oh, this is a parable about prayer, right? On, on what we don't realize, actually, there's also a significant nuance here in contrast in the widow and the judge, which is part of, of this clever subtext and narrative that Jesus is just relentlessly pushing all through the gospel of Luke.

And, and you could argue, of course, that trajectory carries on in the book of acts, which, we're where we see a Jewish beginning on a, an, a Gentile growth sort of, to use language that you used in our last episode where you talk, the invitation has grown. And in the book of acts, we see the invitation growing.

We see a beautiful Jewish roots up blossoming into brunches and leaves that are NY, very Gentile in nature and experience in context. So this is, I think this is all preparing the groan for that. Although it's very much localized in Jesus's world and it has to be understood in a very Jewish context.

The ultimate trajectory of this kingdom is, is much bigger than the localized context he's in. And I think these, these sorts of characters lean into that beautiful, beautiful contrast. 

David: [00:10:40] and, and it's brilliant the way he sets up the characters, there's just chatting about them for a second. So you've got this, you've got this judge. And so, but he's a certain judge, so  it's not initially clear to us. Where is this judge from? Is he, is he an Israelite judge?

Is he a Gentile judge? We do it. We do it. No, we don't know much about the judge tall, but it's interesting. I think that he picks a judge because at some level, I wonder  for, for how many of us. This image of God actually works, as a judge, a host of rules and the law and ethics. Right.

And I think some of us might go, yeah, that's my image of God. And Jesus is sort of going, okay, Fasten your seatbelts. It's just going to be a bumpy ride. Because if God is a judge, what type of justice is he going to uphold? Right. So, interesting question. But then there's a factor of this judge, John, 

is that the one thing you can say about this judge is he tells the truth, right? So, notice in a certain time there was this, there was a judge who feared neither God nor cared what people thought. And the judge said to himself, I don't fear God or care what people think. Right. So, so he's a truth telling judge,  and I wonder if there's a little play on that, that, truths and important feature in this judge's life.

John: [00:11:52] For me, what's really interesting, David is the, the potential lead into this story, which may have a bearing on why Jesus picks the character as he picks it. Just a little reflection. As we've often done, we've, we've tried to see where a parable sits in the flow of a passage and if that's relevant and what's really interesting for me as the chapter 18 begins, then Jesus told his disciples, this parable, which seems to sort of suggest that what happens in 17 is connected.

And what's really gorgeous at the end of 17, is that you have this beautiful conversation of Jesus in, in the context of. Talking about the kingdom of God. And he says in verse 21, looking sort of to the, to the fairest sec community, when they sort of said ask the question, when's the kingdom of God coming.

And Jesus says, these words, the kingdom of God is already among you. It's some translations have within you. He's seen among you. It's it's here right now. It's, it's, it's working among you right now. And only he describes sort of watching for the sayings and, and various things like that. And then he talks about the contrast between the days of Noah when, when people were taken by surprise, by the comment of the kingdom and Sodom and and various nuances within that verse 30, he says this in chapter 17.

It will be just like this on the day when the son of man. Is revealed. And then Jesus goes on to talk about in that day two people will be in bed. One will be taken more mobile, left, two women grinding. One will be taken. One will be left and they ask where Lord. And he says, where there is a dead body.

There are, the vultures will gather, it's a bit of a weird ending, right? And then it says, then Jesus told this parable. Now here's just my little reflection on this is that we, we can, we tend to jump into Luke 18, purely as a, sort of a stand alone, parable on prayer, because that's what it seems to suggest.

He told us sort of people should pray and not give up, but what if the giving up, wasn't just the idea of giving up in prayer, but it literally translates here that you would not lose heart. Which, which might lean back into what he's previously said. If Jesus, there's almost a sort of a sense the kingdom is here, but the kingdom is coming and actually he then tells a parable about a woman who prayers, but doesn't lose heart.

Now. Maybe you'd want to add in there. It doesn't lose heart while waiting for the kingdom. Doesn't lose, lose heart by looking for the kingdom. Does it lose heart while, while looking to the God of having for justice. And it seems to connect that together nicely because at the end of that parable, he says, however, when the son of man comes, will he find fearful in the earth?

Now it's really, I often struggled with that years and years ago where a wet back ending doesn't seem to fit the parable. So he goes, verse it, I tell you, he will see that they get justice and quickly that that bit fits the parable. And then however, when the son of man comes, will he find faith on the earth night?

The way, the way I've tried to understand that last bit is it, is that last bit, will he find faith on the earth leaning into the chapter 17 conversation and the chapter 17 conversation? You've got the comment of the kingdom and Jesus sort of talks about the fact that this coming kingdom one will be taken.

One will be left. Two will be in the field, one taken one left, and this sort of sense that the kingdom is here, but it's also coming that the fullness of the kingdom of God, that you hoped will not be fully realized right now at this instant. And does that lean into the fact then that our prayerfulness is not just about getting justice on a particular issue, which of course that's a perfectly wonderful interpretation, but could it be that it's leaning into the idea of praying and not losing heart while you are waiting for the kingdom to come and all its fullness.

It's just a thought and, and it made then explain why you've got the sort of judge and widow used specifically, because you've got a very extreme feel to the end of chapter 17, which then leads into what feels like a very extreme relationship between the widow and the judge. And the concluding factor is will I find fear thought near, well, I find the sort of fear of the widow hard to keep going.

Even when she didn't seem to be getting what she thought she would get. And that ties into the idea that kingdom has come, but it hasn't fully come. And while you're waiting for it to fully come, don't lose heart, but continue to pray and lean into God. This is, that, is that out of left field or do you think there's some tracks 

David: [00:17:16] no, I think, I think it's it's you want to see, like for me, I always think of the two levels you have the, the historical narrative, you have the historical narrative of, of these are things Jesus said, right. But then you also have the, the author, Luke shaping his telling of the story and positioning things that I just don't believe that Luke takes all of these stories that he knows about Jesus just or throws them all into a pot.

And before that seems like a nice order. Like we we've said this several times for all of the parables, we've looked at that there's connections in threads and strings of pearls. So, we've said maybe there's a thread between Mary's prayer and song at the very start of the gospel, right. The way through to this parable.

So  I don't think it's a big leap to think about. And, and even, even when you talk about the future, Okay, whenever you raise that question in my experience, both in  regular Christian theological conversation in pastoral life, and even in biblical text questions of the future, immediately raised questions of judgment and, and here Jesus rolls out of some questions into the, into the future with a characteristic of this judge.

 So at some level, how is this judgment going to work? Well, let me tell you a little bit about the judge, right? In, in most of my texts, this is heavy, the parable of the persistent widow. Okay. But it could also be the parable of the unjust judge . , but not to me  sounds terrifying the unjust judge.

But if you think about how many of our parables we've talked about throughout this series, what we're saying is when grace encounters you, the judgment rolled out to some will appear unjust. Right. And I even want to say about this judge, you're going to eventually love the fact, cause versus this judge is God.

And our first thought is he's, in a certain time there was a certain judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. Oh my goodness. That's terrifying. That's not a picture of God. I'm uncomfortable with eventually I have learned in reading this parable, I love the God who doesn't care what people think it's like, is this justice?

I don't care. It's this, I've gotta be careful with that because you can push that in the wrong way. But let me put it the way. I mean that to be saying, you can't do that. God people will say it's unfair. People will say that's unjust. I don't care because this is how I'm going to do justice because the mountains will be brought low in the valleys raised up high.

So people are going to complain about that. I was thinking I was reading Isaiah 65 just recently John, and this incredible picture of new creation. And, and it struck me a fresh as I read that. And when I say a fresh or maybe even I've never noticed it before, but , we often focus on if the valleys are raised up, we think, well, that's great.

Get those people out of the valleys. Right. But the mountains are brought low. All the people that are in the mountains are quite enjoying it, okay. Isaiah 65 says, you're going to build your own home and live in it, we'll that that's. Great news for the person who's homeless, but has to work a job, building someone else's house, less great news for the person that wasn't building their own home, and now has to do it for themselves.

The leveling of things is interesting. And so for the people who are doing well at the lack of justice in the world, the news of justice coming, isn't always exciting news. Isn't always great. So this sort of lead up of all this language of a kingdom seems to drive into this underlying narrative around this question of how is this judgment worked out?

And Jesus says, well, don't give up, but let me also tell you a little bit about the judge that you're dealing with here. He's not. I w we said this a moment ago, didn't we, what do you think about the idea of God as a judge and immediately we, we go, well, let me think about what I know about a judge, but the biblical way of reading things I think is to go, what picture of God, as a judge do we have?

And the picture is like, he is a judge that is on, on the side of those who are unfairly and unequally treated. So that even gives him the possibility of no leaning into this widow and say, I'm just going to do what she wants. Because the fascinating thing for me is I actually don't know from reading, I assume Jesus intends this.

Like the widow wants justice grant me justice against my adversary. But like, is the widow right? Is she, is she in the right? That's not brought up. So, so she. It's almost irrelevant to the parable, whether her case is valid or not, she's just persistent and drives the judge to go. I'm going to act in her favor.

So there's this real wonkiness, but the kind of wonkiness that grace brings that the stuff that we think is important, so, Hey John, I'm going to show you a case. I'd love you to give me your ruling on the case. I guarantee that my response, if you said that to me would be tell me the facts, right?

What are the facts of the case? And let me make my judgment, but we don't get that in this story. We get the judges uninterested in the facts. The judge is not bothered about the facts, which again, sounds terrible, but let me just transport it until I come to God as an unworthy sinner and all of a sudden realize.

Wow. It all hangs on. The fact for God is not interested in the facts. God is not interested in in, in what I've done in who I was in, where I came from. This. There's a beautiful story, John, from Brendan Manning, which I love, and I don't know how well it fits, but I love it so much. I'm just gonna tell it.

There's where there's a woman in a village. I think it's in south America and she keeps having these dreams of Jesus. And so the priest hears about this and he goes to see her and he says to her You have got to stop telling people you're having these dreams. People are, people are getting all wound up and overly excited about this.

And, and they're starting to say things about you, which you're, putting you in , not a good position in terms of what people think you're some sort of Oracle, or, used to see you. You've got to stop. She was, but I keep having these dreams where I meet Jesus and I talk to him and and the priest says, well, I don't think that's what's happening.

And you've got this stuff. And, and she says, well, I think it's real. And the priest says, well, I'll tell you what, let's do a test. So the next time you have a dream about Jesus, I want you to say to Jesus, Jesus, tell me my priest's worst sin. He says, and then when we meet together again, we will, we'll talk about this.

So the priest goes away and after a little while he hears again, that this woman is sharing about the fact she's having these dreams of Jesus. So he goes to see her and he says to her so, did you ask, did you ask Jesus. About my worst sin. And she says, yes, I did. And the priest shuffled uncomfortably for a moment.

And he said, and what did Jesus say? And the widow leans forward to the priest. And she says, I said to Jesus, what is my priest's worsen? She says, and Jesus replied. I don't remember.

John: [00:24:38] Yeah. 

David: [00:24:39] I love that. It's just so good. Cause because that's the judge that we're dealing with, so, so the, the word I'm enjoying, I, I used it in a previous episode. The discombobulation of is it just spins your own. It's like, it's like, you're in a washing machine and it's just bouncing you around because nothing's making sense anymore.

But that's this judge like, it's, it's beautiful. He did take my sins. As far as the east are from the west. You mentioned Ephesians two, it's by grace that, you are not rescued by God because you mounted a good case in court that the character of the judge just doesn't care what everybody else thinks is the feature.

It's awesome, John, 

John: [00:25:22] It's it's fantastic.  I think what's really interesting David, is that the unjust judge,  he's described as someone who doesn't fear God or care about man. But of course, in terms of caring about men, it really implies that he doesn't care about the opinions of people when it comes to doing his job, which in some ways, of course, that's exactly what you want from a judge. You want a judge to be acting on the basis of what he understands as truth and justice.

Not on interpretations or pressure that's being put on you or, or what's been manipulated here. And I do love that about the Lord, doesn't, isn't it, we have this nuance, I couldn't help, but reflect as you were speaking. And I immediately went to Abraham and Abraham's conversation with the Lord over the potential destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. And the Abraham starts to get into this debate with the Lord, and he says, well, look, if you can find 50 righteous people, w w will you, will you see it? And the Lord says well, and then, I mean, and then this bargaining starts and ultimately Abraham conclusion is one of the ways, just things he says in this context, he says, well, we'll not the judge of all the earth do right. I think when it comes to thinking about the Lord in this context. And of course, if we're leaning back the way into the coming of the kingdom, which does have both a salvation grace, feel to it as well as a judgment feel to it, two in the field, one taken one left two grand in one day, you get a bit, Ooh, oh, that's a bit interesting that when the kingdom ultimately comes, there's a sense in which some people will be happy to see that kingdom.

And some people will not. So there's a grace and judgment paradox within that kingdom. And of course, to, to us in the 21st century world, all of that feels desperately unfair at some level. And so in the midst of the accusation of unfairness, I have to respond well, knowing the nature of this grit, judge, Knowing the character of this great judge, knowing the, the fact that this great judge is all knowing and all ways.

And his wisdom is on searchable. Isaiah on Paul reflect on. Then we come to the conclusion, whatever the judgment he will do, what is right. And I, and I think that's a, a lovely subtext in here, which ultimately is what Jesus is picking up on. This is not, it's clearly not comparing the sort of grumpiness and not, not desperately attractiveness of this judge to, to, to God our father, but what he is comparing it to is ultimately when he makes a call.

It will be the right call under for your heavenly father when he makes the call, he'll make the right call, which Jesus in fact says that God will bring justice for his chosen ones. And again, just one final reflection on that David, which I think, I think there's a double nuance here. I think if you're prepared to read Luke it teen in the late of Luke 17.

And I think when he says will not God bring about justice. I don't think that's just justice for the here in NY. Justice, okay, I'm going to court, I'm suing my neighbor. I want to win the case tape justice right now. But I think it's, leaning into ultimate justice that he will bring justice to us and, and help us.

But of course, I do think there's also an application to the here and now, which of course is exactly the nuance of chapter 17. The kingdom is among you, but the kingdom is coming. There's a sense in which we can expect the judge to act here in NY, but also there is a sense in which the judge will ultimately do what is right on the right.

I think there's a hearing night in 17 and there's a hearing night in it. I've only ever heard this parable taught about, okay, if you pray, God will answer your prayers today. But if we're also going to help people who are followers of Jesus, to realize that our lives aren't just a boat today, but our lives are about an eternal kingdom.

And I know that's hard to get your head around when you're trying to pay your mortgage, but our lives are about an eternal kingdom that there's a NY aspect to our faith remaining, fearful, but there's also a then aspect of remaining faithful. So for example, can we remain fearful when we don't get the justice we want right now, can we remain fearful until the son of man brings the kingdom to completion?

So I think there's a lovely tension in here at one level. It's a here in NY, parable, I think at another level, it's a leaning into something that is yet to come parable. And I think, I think there's a bit of both in how we appropriate our faith around that. Does that make sense to you? Is that cause I think for me again, that helps link the idea that he'll, he'll get justice and quickly versus see it, but then the second half of first, see it.

However, when the son of man comes now, remember Jesus is the son of Bonnie's there.

So he's clearly leaning into something in the future. When he comes, will he find faith on the earth? I think there's an expectation of justice NY, but even if we don't get justice, NY, will he find faith when he comes, where we're trusting him for ultimate justice? 

David: [00:31:20] The Abraham referenced kind of triggers me on, on that one, John, that there's this, that you're again, you're seeing consistency from what we expect of God. Abraham is called to, to live out a way of righteousness. And these two words, righteousness and justice are very, very closely linked in the biblical narrative.

Aren't these. So, so you get this, righteousness is at some level, I think Tim Mackey talks about righteousness as the ethical standard that refers to right relationship between people. So to be righteous is to treat others as the image of God. So, so there's a sense in which the judge. The judge's actions towards this sort of widow.

Who's just a, a non character in, in, in regular life is actually peeked through, like you say, it's not that this justice under this judge is unjust. It's that he's not governed by what a lot of, judges are maybe pressured to be governed by he's running to a law that's, that's deeply rooted. So we're going to treat people the way they, the way God intends them to be deserved.

But then there's also the idea of justice. So you have the two words in Hebrew set a car and, and mishpat right. And and, and this idea of justice  righteousness, mish justice, but, but often the Bible talks about as a sort of justice that puts things back together. It's the justice you see in Isaiah 65 it's it's the justice that says who are the ignored and the excluded and the downtrodden.

How do we bring justice to them? And, and as you say that, what seems to be going on in this, in this parable, you have this, this widow's tenacious, right? And I love that about her. I feel like there's a big hint in there as to what we're looking for, and I was thinking, widows are actually quite a complex.

Character in scripture, aren't they? Cause, so you've mentioned already, they often kind of hold a hero type role in the parables of Jesus. But if you expand that to the whole scripture, we do as are often unconventional. So traditionally we do as would be weak, poor exploited. Right. That would be the, and you see all these rules throughout scripture as to how you care for widows, because we do end up disenfranchised.

So, the words of scripture tell us, look after widows because, because they are there, we can vulnerable and even see it right through into the early church. The care for widows is important thing. But then if you actually jump into scripture and say, no, let me look at all the widows I see in scripture, they're tenacious, they're driven.

You have Ruth and Naomi they're working situations and  they've been dealt a horrendous hand, but they, they drive forward into, you have the widow that looks after Elijah, who is just willing to do, whatever Elijah asks is she so driven to, to believe this?

So, so I run it quickly enough. There's there's this kind of. Tension goes on between how widows are perceived, but how they actually act. So it's almost from the old Testament narrative, not surprising to get a tenacious widow because we grew up hearing stories about tenacious, tenacious, widows. So, so yes, her life is tough.

But we don't know much about her. We don't know for sure. Again, she's just a widow, but she drives this, this thing forward. But also what I love about it is that Jesus gives her immense agency. So she's not held victim by her circumstance. She, she's not seen and not heard. She's, if your picture is some sort of, quiet, retiring lady, who's just trying to keep out of the way.

That's not what you're getting here. Is it? What you're getting here is this is this strong character. Out of context, taking on this judge who ironically claims to not care what anybody thinks, but at the same time, this widow is pushing him to the edge.

John: [00:35:26] Yup. Yup. totally. And I think that tenacity of the woman, literally, I mean the implication is bruises, or potentially bruises. The judge, he is, he is, well, he probably tries initially to just swatter away. It's just another complaint than the day that he's dealing with on the people of Jesus' world would have seen that happen over and over again.

And maybe even a Roman judge or a local, a local sort of delegated judge dealing with her with her issues and almost just. Not giving any credence to the complainant because of the person who's bringing the complaint, but actually it's her tenacity that keeps the issue on the agenda. And the judge Stan responds to that.

He responds to this idea that this woman believes in this so much that she is not giving up on this. And therefore I will look into it. I will pay attention to it. And I think debit within that, then you get a paradoxical moment in our relationship with the Lord himself. So if we're happy with accepting that the judges is a, a metaphor of the Lord here, which of course the parable itself clearly tells us is that the widow is representative of all those who are.

Walk in the journey of fifth, then there is a paradox because, because actually, well, the God that we talk about is gracious, compassionate, slow to anger, a boned in a love of truth. I mean, we've had this conversation. He is a good God and everything he does is good. He is a generous God, a gracious God and a cane.

God. So, so the image that we're getting of this God is actually, I, I want, I want to give you good things. I want to bless you. I want to look after you and jet, and yet here's a woman that's having to be tenacious with something persistent, with something relentless, with something in order to get something from God.

And that's a paradoxical idea, isn't it. And again, we're hearing an echo of the sermon on the moon. Ask. And it will be given to you seek and you will find knock and the door will be open for everyone who asks, receives everyone who seeks veins and to him who knocks the door will be open. But of course, the implication behind that as used in other gospels is that, you may ask and not get immediately. You might seek not feigned immediately. And your mate, as it were seek to, to sort of get your justice in this case and not get it immediately. So, what are you going to do? Are you going to then say, well, God's not interested. God doesn't care. God doesn't love me. God doesn't care about me or are you going to persist in believe in it?

Ultimately the God that we trust then can still give us the justice that we desire or, or the justice. And this is a more difficult one for us, that justice that is right to be given because sometimes the justice we desire and the justice we should get, aren't always the same thing. And I think that's where we have to trust the judge.

I think that's where we have to continue to believe even when the judge doesn't exactly give us the justice we asked for, but the justice that is appropriate in the context. So it's, it's it. I think it's an interesting paradox. Within that that, that you've got, a generous God that you have to keep asking. And I think, again, that makes more sense to me, not just when thinking of an end of the Juul event or God, my employer's given me a hard time, please fix this for me. Absolutely. We should bring those moments to the Lord. But of course then if we're waiting for willing to widen the conversation into a bigger conversation about the kingdom and our boat, ultimate justice then than it is, it is about trusting the way God does things.

Not just the way we want things. So there's a little tension, I think, within that as well. 

David: [00:39:41] I would want to constantly push to ensure that we resist within the story  an attempt to, to make sense of the why of the story at some level, that, it gives such a wonky story. Even in, in, in Roman courts and Jesus is saying all of this in the shadow of the Roman empire, women weren't welcomed into the court.

So,  if we're doing this in context, the likelihood is that the woman is not in court. That's really what, I'm what I'm thinking to say here. So she's bugging the judge outside of his job time. So, like if there's a way to maybe she's breaking the rules and has come into court, that's one way to read the story.

I quite like the idea that Jesus knows that his listeners will go a woman can't go into court to, to bug a judge. So I I'm imagining her following him to his car and chasing him down the street and appearing at his front door and pushing the button on the Intercom. Like this is just, this is above and beyond.

What's acceptable in terms of like, you got to give it a rest, no lady, but she, she refuses to but I love the fact in the story. There isn't enough data to, to allow us to build a case for why the woman should be. Given her justice that what it does then is the whole mechanism of movement comes from the judge.

So, because if there was, if Jesus would add a little caveat and you see what actually happened here, where she'd be mistreated or this had happened, or, we'd go, ah, yes, she deserved this. But I think again, Jesus wants to pull us away from trying to figure out, did she deserve it and keep the focus on the characteristic of the judge?

So the judge, so, so don't look at, think about this in your own life. Don't look at, do I deserve this or not? The question is what is God like? And and what is God going to, what is God going to do? And now of course, we see this at Jeremiah 22, we have Jeremiah 22 sort of, what his righteousness look like?

What is justice look like? Well, God, through Jeremiah is it bring about justice, don't tolerate oppression against the immigrant, the orphan and the widow. So we're seeing, again, even these echoes of the big picture of scripture that, that this. If you got the story almost as if is Jesus saying this here, John, if you've been tracking this story and I mean, this story from Genesis, not just the story Jesus has been telling, but if you've been it's almost, if he sends you listeners, if you've been tracking the whole story of what God's doing now, you're seeing that coming here, present in me, then the moment you see a widow and then you should think, oh, we're supposed to do justice towards a widow.

We're supposed to reach out justly towards a widow. And then you get God's saying, well, yeah, that's exactly what God wants to do here with this, with this tenacious widow, this there's some beautiful nuances there that I think are worth just tracking, given where this parable was located in this conversation about the kingdom.

  John: [00:42:42] Mm. Yeah.

completely. And, and again if, if you follow from the persistent widow into the rest of the chapter on it's, it's not absolutely clear if Jesus launches straight into the next parable, or if this is an insertion, from Dr. Luke in terms of just material order, but verse nine to some who were confident in their own righteousness and look into their nose and everyone else, Jesus told the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector.

So again, you have this sense of a prayer being heard. By someone who would normally not be heard. So, so you've got this beautiful, beautiful idea of,  this tax collector, just putting his head down and saying, God, be merciful to me, a sinner and Jesus essentially saying he went home justified before God. So, so what you've got, if you put those two together beautifully, you've got then a widow who gets justice and the tax collector who is justified on both experienced that from this cm God, and they are experiencing it. Through the medium of some understanding of prayer. So the woman persistently relentlessly engages with the judge  the nature of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector.

We don't know how long he prayed or if this was a one-off prayer or a series of prayers. But the point is in the widow, she prays and gets justice. He prays and it's justified. And of course she gets justice, not just because she prayed and was persistent, but because the judge is just, he gets justified, not just because he prayed a cooled prayer, but because God is gracious.

And, and so both the stories back to back reflect, not just on the nature of prayer, one being persistent. And the other one, reflecting humility, which is it's the big nuance that Jesus pulls out a Pharisee and tax collector. But of course they also magnificently reflect on the nature and character of God, himself, that he is willing to defend the case of the widow and do something for her that she will appreciate.

But also he is willing to justify the outcast the center. And of course the last little nuance there is that the widow on the tax collector are both on the margin by, by definition of their societal position. They're both marginalized and could be dismissed. By the judge. The judge says that the word of go away from me, you're nothing.

You're nobody you're worthless. Leave me alone on society would have given him permission to say such wicked and cruel things. But he doesn't, he doesn't say that God, God could have said to the tax law, what are you doing in the temple? Get lost. You're you're a collaborator. You're filthy. You're unclean.

You're dirty, but, but actually the Lord responds to both in the most magnificent way. So again, they may be back to back in chronology. Jesus literally teach him one after the other, or they may be positioned by Dr. Luke, but either way, they lean into this beautiful idea that actually we don't need to know the details of the tax collector's life.

And we don't need to know the details of the woman's clear. That's not the point. The point is God responds to both 

David: [00:46:31] And that's where I love that, that sense of a certain judge from a certain town, right. It's intentionally vague. Right. And  let me just kind of tweak this a little tighter for a second . But so many of our views of justice are governed by racist and  sexist principles.

So here we have a widow, a woman,  from who knows where. And there's almost a question in the world that depending who you are, your gender and your race, or your ethnicity does affect you in a court of law. Right? We will deny that we'll fight against that, but the evidence is becoming overwhelming really at some, at some level that, that, that justice isn't being metered out fairly on the earth.

But here we have this story that neutralizes that, that God's gonna do justice, even though you don't know all of these details because, but this is the way that God rules out justice. And I, I can't help, but think that this is then pushing us also forward to the crescendo of course, of Luke and all gospels is Jesus, his death on the cross that, that.

Humans are relentlessly unjust. That would be, I realize it's a harsh criticism of humanity, but probably not an unfair one. An injustice is closer to our mode of operation than justice. Right. And how does God responds to humanity's injustice? Well, he, he gives us Jesus and, and Jesus, he dies on the behalf of our unrighteousness.

The net result of which is, we become righteous that God raised Jesus from the dead pointing out. I think that this is an injustice that's happened to Jesus, but we know, we know are gifted. This righteousness, we are somehow included. Paul uses this language of being in Christ that somehow Christ righteousness now applies to us so that you see then what Jesus is driving in advance of all of this is a call for us to be righteous because the righteousness we get.

Is undeserving. And then it's what I love about the vagueness of the parable. I don't know whether this woman deserved the righteousness. That doesn't matter. The moment you start asking whether it's deserved, you've got off track because here's the problem. The moment you think you've deserved, the righteousness you get from God, start choosing to dish out righteousness to those that you think deserve it.

And it seems like what the kingdom Jesus is trying to teach us about says, listen, you don't deserve it. So give it away to those who don't deserve it. There's. And that to me is really cranked up in this next parable then when it rolls into the Pharisee and the tax collector, which we've obviously we've talked about already.

So we can, you can go back and listen to that, but use the same, the same drum is beating here. Isn't it like, just be very careful of that tendency to, to, to get to thinking that something of deserving has a feature in how. And how you're going to get rescued or find justice. And at which point I can't help, but think the echo of the last things parables are floating there, the parable of the great banquet did you deserve to be at the dinner?

No. You got to be there. Did the sheep deserve to get lost? Was it the sheep's fault to get lost? Did it deserve to get phoned? Like these questions are ridiculous questions to ask and I think that's the point it's, it's not about us. It's about who God is. And then he's asking something quite profound of us from that.

John: [00:50:13] Totally. And I think like the last little nuance that I would throw in there for reflection for our listeners is that sometimes in a weird way, there can be like a, a hidden, prayed, even in the answers to our prayers counter, well, I got that because I prayed and, and that's a sort of a, a slightly nuanced prayed there.

If we're not careful that

I hope our listeners aren't defended by that, but let me say I've done that, Hey, the Lord bless me. W we respond that we give money to the poor and look what God did, but we're also saying, yeah, but I, and I give money to the poor, there's this sort of a deserved feel to the blessing.

We prayed and God answered. And of course our contribution is very, very important than that, but, but of course the, the ultimate truth, when you put these two parables together, if you're prepared to do that and you connect it to the, to the kingdom now and the coming kingdom, is it actually, well, the reason we get justice now, or where are we at right now is yeah, yeah, you prayed.

We, we reached out, but ultimately the judge of all the earth did, right. Lots of people pray, but they're praying the something that's dead or they're praying to something that cannot give them the justice or the righteousness. That they need. And so actually ultimately this leans back into the nature and character of God that we, we do get maybe in this life, but certainly in the life to come, we get justice because God is good.

Not just because we prayed and we are mirrored, right. Because God is gracious. Not just because we prayed. So, so it's, it's that beautiful. I think even then our own spirituality gets tempered. It, it, there's no room for me to have prayed and anything I do, even if I pray,  and God answers my prayer.

Actually, the bit that I celebrate is his answer. Not the fact that I prayed because ultimately even if I prayed, it's no guarantee. He will or needs to answer. So even as answering of my prayer is an act of grace and generosity, which is the thing I think we should celebrate the most. 

David: [00:52:46] There is a surprise in this parable. If, if we think about it, we talking about a God who listens and a God who hears. So the first thing that so obvious at one level, but needs to be reminded that this is not some religious or, or cultic sort of God that we just pray to silently, but, but Jesus has sewing into this parable or God is God is hearing us .

And I think this is where I tie the question of, will he find faith? Will he find trust this, this very nuanced Greek word that's used there. So will you find faith or trust? Can you trust a God who is working like this? Now? I think the implications of that are very impacting. We don't know whether the woman deserves or not.

We don't know whether her, her case validated the situation. That's all unknown. And we've said, okay, Because we think that means it's actually unimportant. Right? But just think about that for a second. The next time you pray and things don't go the way that you hoped. Can you reject that sort of voice?

That's either in your head or in some bad theology that you've encountered that tells you, oh, the reason that it's not gone the way you wanted it to is because there's something wrong with you, right? Or here are the reasons why your prayer hasn't worked, you've done something wrong. You've done something bad.

You've don't have enough faith. You've not been a Christian Long enough. You haven't given enough away. These sort of things like this is commonplace in Christianity to start to provide logics and reasons. But I think this parable, will he find faith? Will you trust that the God of the earth will do what's right.

And, and don't then. Destroy yourself in all of your anxieties about trying to figure out the reason as to why things haven't gone, the way you wanted them to. And for me that, that's hard, that's difficult, but, but I want to resist the temptation to explain how prayer works in a way that suggests, so this is now how you can control God.

Right. But rather a prayer that works by, by trust. Do you know John? And I wonder if this might be a, an interesting place just to hang our hat for this episode, do you know CS Lewis? He's a footnote to all prayers. 

John: [00:55:12] Oh yeah, yeah. 

David: [00:55:13] And, and I, I reflect on this quite a lot  I'll put a link in the show notes to it or you can just Google it.

But Lewis writes, this, writes this poem really, which he then calls a footnote to all prayers. So what he says is this poem, whenever I pray, this is kind of just add it on the bottom. I don't say it, but it's there and I'm remembering it. And so, go and have, go and have a read of it in your own time.

But I just want to bring up a couple of points about it. Lewis says this thing in it where he, he basically, he accepts the fact that when he prays to God, he has to imagine what God is like. But what he does is he says, but I realized that my imagination of what God is like is a bit fanciful actually, because I can't imagine the fullness of God.

So what I'm imagining is just a sliver of what God's actually like. So then he says something quite, quite stark. He's just a really, if I'm honest, my prayers. I'm imagining God, it's an idolatry of sorts because I'm putting a picture together. It's not the right picture. So there's even a blast for me too.

At that level. This is what I, that could be shocking like that could, that could drive us away from prayer. He says, but we pray anyway. And then he does this. He says, because God has, and also shortly, he also says, it's important to say, so having constructed this image of God that I'm praying to, that I know is not big enough.

And I know it's not right enough. I then pray basically things that relate to me, completely self deceived and self obsessed in my prayers. And then he says this, and this is why I love it. He says, but you in your magnetic, mercy divert. And he says, our prayers are like arrows, but aimed unskillfully. So we're just like, how do we pray?

Lewis is saying just, we just get our hours to go shoot, shoot, which is firing arrows all over the place. Hey, but wait a minute. What's God like God's magnetic. So he takes these arrows and Lewis is this God, when I pray, take not my literal sense, but in your own great way, translate my limping metaphors.

So this is Lewis takes all these arrows. So God takes all these arrows that are fired randomly into the air. And what he does is he gathers them all into himself and then does this, he answers the prayers that we should have. Great. So, so we say, God, would you deal with that neighbor of mine by, doing X or Y God, God's like, well, or I could deal with your attitudes or I could make you become free.

So this idea that loses just be where the fed, of course, God answers your prayers, but the way that he answers them is the way that they should be answered, not the way that we would like them to be answered. And, and I think like, I, I reflect on that quite a lot, John, and in this parable as well.

I love that Jesus leaves the subject blank because if we put the subject in, we then start trying to justify ourselves and, and notice just notice I said that, and then just glance at the text and remembered verse nine to some who were confident of their own righteousness. Jesus tells another parable, so I think that patterns there, what Jesus is doing, is, is this is not about who you are. It's about who God is. And I just think that's beautiful.  

David Harvey: [00:58:38] Okay. So that's it for our episode. Thanks so much for listening and we hope you enjoyed it. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something we said, you can reach out to us and podcast@twotexts.com. Or by liking and following the two techs podcast and Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. 

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