David Harvey  0:01  
Hi there. I'm David Harvey. I'm here with John Andrews. And this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries here every two weeks, talking about two different texts from the Bible. This, however, is our lunch series. So we're bringing you a daily episode of the two of us talking about the parables of Jesus. This is Episode 11. And it's called an unacceptable parable.

John Andrews   0:39  
So David, we're jumping in here at Luke chapter 18:9, some of our listeners will have it in their Bible as the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, verse nine, Luke 18 says to some who weren't confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable, that's a serious introduction, right? Ben went up to the temple to pray, one of heresy and the other a tax collector, the Pharisees stood up and prayed a boat or to himself, God, I thank you, that I am not like other men, robbers, evildoers, adulterers, or even like this tax collector, I fast twice a week, I'm getting a 10th of all I get, but the tax collector stood at a distance, he would not even look up there haven't but beat his breast and said, God, have mercy on me, a sinner. I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God, for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled. And he who humbles himself will be exalted.

David Harvey  2:01  
So there's, there's a parable for you.

John Andrews   2:06  
I think there are some lines in there that are just, I cannot imagine Jesus telling this without a smile on his face. I think there's humor over this. And I cannot imagine the crowed, not giggling on elbowing each other on sort of nudging each other in the background. Of course, there may have even been Pharisees sort of listening on and engaging in so it's To me, it's filled with humor on some of the audacity within the tax remembering, of course, as we've discussed many times, in a parable, Jesus is literally the narrator, he is creating the text that is being said. So these are very, very, very pointed words that Jesus is using really funny.

David Harvey  2:52  
Robert Katherine's comment on this parable is that it is totally unacceptable. He says, this is an unacceptable parable isn't it's just so audacious when he tells it. But you said something a couple episodes ago, that I think it's worth pointing out at the minute as well, is that the best we can make sense of Jesus is that Jesus is a faricy himself, just one who's, you know, either being kicked out or is on the outskirts, or, you know, his his training. And now that sounds kind of controversial to us in our president era, because the Pharisees are so often, you know, in the Bible presented as a kind of the group that are fighting with Jesus. But if it's true that, and it makes sense within the context, if you look, if you were to take Jesus from what you know about him, he definitely has been trained similar to them. He teaches similar to them. When people meet him, they call him rabbi, which is the language you would address. So in Jesus's world, he's this kind of almost errant pet Pharisees, the Pharisees like, well, he is one of us, but he, but he's really on the edge. And we're there. So there's a level of which I find some of the initial kind of political incorrectness of Jesus's parable is sort of reduced if we think about Jesus's own context, you know, so it's like, you know, me as a pastor, telling a joke about a pastor and a tax collector. And so people go, Well, you can't say that, but a passionate Well, he's a pastor. So, so it's not quite as offensive in that sense. But also, I think it's worth you saying, right at the start of a parable like this, in my opinion, that the Pharisees is also a good guy in this, that we, we have this tendency, I think, because of how we've read the Gospels, and some of this sort of anti Jewish feeling that's come through Christianity at various points in its history. We forget that the Pharisees were the good guys they love they were the Orthodox Jesus, not Jesus. Sorry, the Orthodox God followers. They're the people that seriously were passionate about what God has said they want you to follow Do it and play it out. So, so we have a tendency to read this story, like the Pharisees that the awkward one. But that is because we don't really relate to the tax collectors, the tax collectors were hated. In that sort of time, they decided with the oppressors, they decided with the Romans, and the Roman structures. I don't know how well known this is. But the Romans basically gave the tax collectors an amount of money that they needed for the mortgage, you'll be the tax collector of this village, they might say, we need X amount of money from you every year in taxes from that village. But the Romans were relatively happy for that tax collector to basically make his own money by adding a skim on top of that, and that was legit and normal. So not only has a villager sided with the Romans, not only is that villager taking taxes then from us to give to the Romans, that villagers making profit on top of that, from us to do this. So when you're listening to this, a pastor and a tax collector, a faricy, and a tax collector, you know who the bad guy of the story is, instantly, and of course, you've

John Andrews   6:07  
got a beautiful, a beautiful little hidden play here in that pharmacy is literally literally means separated one. So the pharmacy was someone who separated himself, because of his love for Torah, and the love for the Lord, he didn't want to be contaminated by anything on clean under four would work very, very hard to preserve his personal integrity in the context of that. So he has separated himself for us, the tax collector has been separated. So society has literally excluded him. So weirdly, you've got two people here that are sort of in their own unique way, on the margins. So you've got the faricy, who's who's in a marginalized position, because he wants to be he's chosen to be this defender of Torah, this bastion of Moses, and the one who will protect God from the sinners. Whereas the tax collector, also by choice, but of course, auditor, that is society saying, actually, we don't want you to be part of us, we actually want you so you've got an interesting sort of separation that would be on the surface onto righteousness, and a separation on the unrighteousness. And of course, that's the very play that Jesus introduces in the parable for those who believe themselves to be righteous. And looked down on others. I mean, that that as an opening, my goodness, it's like, he just takes that he just takes the bat, and he whacks it for a homeruns credit, straight out. And I mean, it's just, it's just an incredible, he's not, he's not gently introducing us into the concepts here. He is just heading us with where this parable is going right from the beginning. But I think the marginalization weirdly of both characters, one for righteousness and one for unrighteousness is is a major clever factor in how Jesus is playing this conversation. It's a it's a brilliant piece of narrative from Jesus, and he knows exactly the audience and how they will respond to it.

David Harvey  8:25  
So if you're an audience member, that let's put ourselves in this sort of context for a moment, john, and you are listening to this if I think what you're saying is, I'm none of these people. Right? So I'm, so I'm listening to Jesus tell this parable. Imagine a fantasy and a tax collector, and I'm going okay, so which person because maybe I've gotten smart to Jesus, these parables, I'm always somebody in the parable. So So which person am I and I don't naturally relate to anyone the Pharisees, distinct from me, because he's too good. And the tax collector is distinct from me, because he's a stealing scumbag. So I want nothing to do with him. In that something of the trick in the parable almost isn't

John Andrews   9:03  
this genius? In many respects, the average person in the crowed the Pharisees and the tax collector are both on touchable to them. So like, like, if, if me and you were just standing there, like the Pharisees out of our league, because he, he literally can recite Moses off by heart, the first five books of the Bible, the Torah, I mean, he knows this inside Oh, the man is a scholar on any lives a serious life. And as you say, in the context of their devotion to God, there is a goodness about these people, all right, they, they they sometimes their zealousness takes them in the wrong direction and Jesus challenges them on that. But then there is the untouchable of the tax collector. were quite literally and it's interesting, nuanced in the parable. You don't want to get too close to the only time you get close to a tax collector is to pay your taxes. You do not want to touch them. You don't want to be touched by them. You Don't want to be associated with them. And you absolutely don't want to be them in the story. So there are extremes here that, that Jesus is driving at something by using an extreme juxtaposition. Which of course, in the Lucan corpus he does. So often, he often puts sort of couplets together in the Gospel of Luke, that sort of provide dynamic contrasts. In fact, we've just had one previously, and the first part of Luke 18, where you've got a widow, and the the sort of the ruler, the the man that she wants her justice from. So you've got the judge, and you've got the widow. Well, in Society of Jesus, you couldn't get a greater juxtaposition. You've got someone with power, and someone with no power, then you're moving into the Pharisees and the texts going out, of course, as we've loved to do, we love to put these parables in their context and in their flow. From this parable, we go straight into little G's, you know, the little children thing where Jesus says, actually, don't rebuke the children, let the child so here he is rebuking his inner circle his disciples for not letting little children who didn't register on the Richter scale of seriousness in their world as far as the ology and, and Syria and life is concerned. And then of course, we move from that to the rich ruler, who comes to Jesus and says, What must they do to have eternal life and Jesus says, sales or sell you have, and it goes away. So you get a ruler, who is rejected. So the whole throughout the whole passage of leuke, at 10, you've got these massive juxtapositions, you've got these huge tensions being managed right through the text. And the pharmacy and the tax collector, as far as Luke's writing is concerned, is absolutely There are of course, looking at teen finishes with the blind beggar refusing to shut up. So the crowd say Shut up, leave Jesus alone. And he shows all the more. So you've got then a disadvantaged, marginalized person being not only heard by Jesus, but then being healed by Jesus. So you've got this magnificent tension, dancing around the margins and the juxtaposition all the way through the chapter of Luke 18 of which are gorgeous little parable sits in the middle, and and has to be understood. I think, in that flow,

David Harvey  12:31  
there's a there's a New Testament scholar, his name is Jerome narroway. And he has written a fantastic little piece that I little article that I enjoy, where he talks about what he calls this symbolic universe of Luke acts. And hit but the subtext so this is the heading of the article, the symbolic universe of Luke acts, the sub heading is the turn the world upside down, which is a direct quote from Acts, of course. And but this idea of them turning the world upside down, what, what the writer of this article drum nary does is he points out that this is something that goes on throughout these whole two books, right? There's this constant turn, everything's getting turned to chaos. If you were, if you were the powerful if you were the rich, if you're the seeing if you're the judge, using the people that you've just cited, if you're the adult, not the child, you have power, agency strength and ability. And the whole what Mary says is what you've just described here in john 18. Sorry, in Luke 18. JOHN, that's what the work you've just described in Luke 18, john Neri would say, this is actually happening across the whole two books, that Jesus is turning the world upside down. So he has this little quote that I wanted to read, because I really enjoyed it. He says, Luke did not see that Jesus condemned those whose lives were happy or enjoyed honor in society or were learned or had status, he did not banish them from the map of God's covenant members. Rather, he rearranged the lines of the map, so that those formerly excluded from the net map were included, and those on the outer circles of the map, were no closer to the center. Yet to a devout first century Jew. This sounds as though the world has been turned upside down.

John Andrews   14:25  
Magnificent, others magnificent, that's beautiful. Absolutely. I think it does absolutely some Luke's passion for the margins within that and of course, we've reflected before Luke, the only Gentile contributor to the New Testament corpus and and is that a coincidence? I think not. And you've got a highly educated man, probably either sponsored by a wealthy patron to write his gospel or the book of Acts or

David Harvey  14:57  
the awfulest character.

John Andrews   14:58  
Absolutely. Or has it Enough, because of his background, and maybe privilege has enough independent wealth to support himself. But yet his his passion, understanding and empathy with the margins. And understanding the trajectory of that, from what we would call the Old Testament into this revelation through Jesus is astounding. Absolutely a stone, I think one of the greatest services to Dr. Luke, and I know, we're straying a little bit. But I think one of the great the services is over the years, he has been simply pigeon holed as a historian. And I think it's in the last 4050 years, he has been celebrated. And rightly so. As a theologian, or someone who's actually making a theological point through his history, he's making a theological point. Through his narrative. He's not telling a story, oh, and accidentally bumping into a piece of preferring theology. I think he's understood, maybe tutored by Paul, he's absolutely understood, there is a story to be told here about Jesus. And therefore he positions his narrative to tell that story of Jesus. And I think that upside upside down this is absolutely at the core of, of Luke's vision of Jesus who came to seek and to see if that which was lost,

David Harvey  16:24  
locating what you're seeing in our conversation for today. If you read chapter 18, it feels like a kind of random collection of stories. It doesn't the narrative itself doesn't happen historically, if you if you notice it, and I say this, again, you know, you know, please don't hear what I'm not saying. Some of the parables, we've talked about how there's a clear flow, this happened, then this happened. And this happened, it all happened on the same day. This this, this chapter, clearly, that's not happening. Oh, then Jesus wants he told the parable, but how to pray. I know, he also told this parable about being confident in your own righteousness. And then he said this about children. And then a man came to him once. And if you're not careful, you could just assume Luke had some stories you need to tell. So he threw them in here at this point. That's Luke the story and or Luke, the editor at some level. But when you step back, as you've just described, to let's look at all of chapter 18, you now see the thread that's hanging these apparently random stories together, is the minority, the outsider, the ignored one, the unpowered, the non powerful, that person is the one who's the hero of the story, that person is the one who gets even as far as in our parable today, the hated one is the one who gets to encounter God's God's mercy and forgiveness. And then what we're seeing again, then is if you then zoom out even further, so you zoom out not just from the parable to the chapter, but now to the entire book of Luke and then maybe even to the entire book of Acts, you know, see, this theology is happening everywhere. And this is this is the message of Luke for one of a better than, you know, the sense of you know, I I like just jumping back to Neary he says it like this low is high, empty is full, you know, sad is happy, losing is saving rejection is exaltation. And then he's final, which I love dead, is alive.

John Andrews   18:20  
Absolutely, I think I think if you, if you're zooming out, as you've suggested, or David, I think, you move from chapter eight team. And of course, the first story we encounter in chapter 19 is the story of a prominent tax collector, who by the end of the story is called a son of Abraham. Yeah, so So again, you know, sometimes Dr. Luke, and his stories are clearly chronologically connected. And then other times, I think they are theologically connected, he is putting together some stuff that helps to build a message around this. And so you've got this beautiful parable in the middle of a team of authority and a tax collector and the Pharisees say, Oh, God, please be merciful to me. And then in the very first story of the next chapter, it's a it's a tax collector finding mercy. I mean, literally, I'm overwhelmed with emotion. It just it just, you just think that's, that's just here's, here's a literal example of the parable.

David Harvey  19:33  
Is the parable wasn't offensive enough. If the parable didn't upset you enough. Well, you can kind of go away good. Yeah, but it's made up right. The parable was just this and that, Oh, my goodness. Next chapter, real life example of this exact thing happening. Especially as you've mentioned elsewhere, I've heard you mentioned this before that, that what's fascinating is that if you read the story of Zacchaeus with The cultural norms of hospitality and the days of Jesus, Jesus going to Zacchaeus, his house probably involves him choosing not to go to one of his friends, which would likely be one of the Pharisees. How so there's even an implied Jesus choosing the one over the other. It's quite, it's quite profound. So pushing this, john, because there's another little theme in this. That's a little subtle, but I'd love to know what your response to it would be. And perhaps whether you've spotted it yourself. There's sort of three contrasts going on in this in this parable today of the Pharisees in the tax collector. So the first one is there in the title faricy versus tax collector, right. The second contrast that happens is the content of the prayers. Okay, so one of them is just, I'm glad I'm not like him. I think john, I laughed, because I mean, my background was probably quite different to a lot of our listeners, but you know, growing up in a kind of smaller at church context, in, in a village in Scotland, like, I have heard some shocking things prayed in my life where, where people decide to air some dirty laundry in the church prayer meeting out loud or something like that. But I've never heard anyone quite get as far as to say, I'm glad I'm not like that person over.

So, so sure, but that contrast the contrast of this self righteous prayer, versus this very self deprecating prayer. But now there's a third contrast, I think, is really interesting, that actually kind of falls back towards this notion of this world turned upside down. And the third contrast, I think, is a Lucan one between temple and house, right. Now, some of the English translations just for ease of reading, just soften some of the language that the two men went up to the temple. And at the end, they go down to their homes. So you've got this might just be geographical data or something like that. But it's the, the movement between the temple and the home is quite important. So hold this in mind, if you can track with me for a second. Think about Luke acts now for a second. So two men go up to the temple, right? They go up to the temple, the place of righteousness, but Jesus says one of them goes down to his home. righteous, okay. And the Greek word is is in the perfect tense. So it's like a really good translation of that, although it would be really clunky would be having been made righteous he is he is the completed state that this man no has no. Now let's go back up. We're zoom back out again. Luke begins for one of a better term around the temple that a lot of Temple stuff goes on in the early chapters of Luke and ends actually, in the temple. Luke ends with the disciples are in the temple and they're doing their thing. And then Luke acts kind of begins back there. Again, they're if they're back in, there's all this temple stuff going on. But where does Luke at end ends in homes, right? It ends in houses. So there's this very subtle little thing going on there. I'm, if you just were to take this parable on its own, I think you would rightfully come back to me, and you're welcome to and go, that's the most tentative link I've ever seen. Right? That, but when you start to sit back and think about these whole two books as a piece, there's also a subtlety within How does righteousness happen, and it doesn't happen by going to a holy place, it actually happens in homes in the in the sort of in that community sort of context. And I just can't help but think that Luke's being because I think Luke is a theologian. And I also think like you, he's a profoundly clever theologian. So when I see something like this, and go, this starts in the temple ends at home, this is what happens in this whole series of books. Is it another little push that the pattern of looks of Luke's whole process, right? So think about, think about it like this is moving us away from places that naturally exclude, right? So there's, there's a, there's a description, john of the temple, that's quite brilliant in in in an ancient text where it talks about the radiating views of holiness within the temple. So you have the most holy place which is the holiest place slightly last holy is the holy place, slightly less holy than that you have the court of the priests for the last holy that you have the court of the men of story of Israel, and then you have the quarter of the men. Then you have the quarter of the Gentiles. So the whole thing radiates from most holy to last holy. And then of course, you know, the temple is in Jerusalem, the most holy city, which is a city within Israel, the Holy Land. So you see this from them. You know, I think, I can't remember which Jewish writer it's But they call the temple is the navel of the earth. So it's where heaven meets Earth. It's the most holy place. It's the connection point. And then and then basically, holiness diminishes the further away you get from it. And I think you see this in Luke, when Jesus talks about in Luke acts, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the ends of the earth, he's pointing out that you know, those places that you thought were less holy Take, take the gospel there, go with the Holy Spirit there. So I can't help but think that for Luke the temple, at some level, bear in mind, he's a Gentile as well. The temple represents exclusion, the temple represents your outside or inside. So I can't help but think there's something profound in that move from temple to house.

John Andrews   25:46  
I love that as a nuance within that, and I think it it is an unmistakable trajectory of Luke, I think this glorious idea that a gospel that begins on the fringe of the Empire, in a temple ends at the heart of the empire in a house. I mean, that's the trajectory if you take Luke and Acts together, and of course, on spoken and unwritten in the text is a cataclysmic event that will eventually take place, depending on when you're prepared to date Luke and Acts in terms of the writing, but a cataclysmic event happens in 87. The word is very structure this magnificent structure is is completely eradicated not one stone left on another, the Romans literally plough over the site. And it's a it's a it's a moment where the physicality of this presence is decimated. But of course, in leading into Jesus in the gospels, he's already dynamically hinted towards that. And, and the fact that in Luke's Gospel, he virtually does none of his ministry in the temple precinct, see of the last few days of his life, every everything he pronounces the forgiveness of sins, outside of the temple of fact, as far as I can understand, if you put all the Gospels together, there's only one moment where Jesus pronounces forgiveness of sins, inside the temple precinct, and that's the adulterous woman enjoying it. And I know there's a conversation of should that be included in the text or not, but even if you're going to include it, it's the only moment where Jesus pronounces forgiveness of sins, everywhere else, he, he extends forgiveness, outside of the template precinct, almost locating the power and presence of God away from that. Interestingly, if you do a simple headcount, Luke mentions temple and house more than any of the other gospels. So he talks it's fascinating what you're saying he, he doesn't practice his ministry, Jesus doesn't in the temple as much as he as elsewhere, but he talks about it more. But he also then pushing into this idea of house. The the text that I was reading, there's another article I was reading by john Eliot points out that Luke has Jesus tell 31 parables, okay, 18 of them are to do with household management or domestic activity. So even in the subtleties, and I'm just throwing in these nuances, because I think our listeners will love to hear this color just just to support what you're saying is

David Harvey  28:25  
there that he talks about it a lot, but all of the imagery that Jesus talks about is putting you in your local household setting.

John Andrews   28:32  
Yeah, completely. And and I think at the heart of it, is moving towards ultimately, Jesus Himself is the replacement of this temple, he becomes the epicenter of this new community, this called a community where there's neither Jew nor Greek, free, nor slave, male and female, that ultimately there's he's raising up a community where there will be no no go areas where there will be no Exclusion Zones. And I've often reflected on this, and, and again, I hope people hear this properly, but the minute you make a place sacred, I think people become stuck around that place. I think, I think the place ultimately evolves to become more important than the purpose of the place itself, which of course, by the time Jesus comes along, our whole industry has developed. And ironically, these, these prayers are taking place, certainly that the tax collector would have prayed in the Court of the Gentiles. And he's praying in probably almost what will feel like a bizarre, there's trading going on, there is money being exchanged. There are animals being bought and sold. And there's a lot of stuff going on, though, that even Jesus ultimately goes, this is not what this whole thing was designed for. And so you get that That sense of Jesus repositioning this new community away from a structure and into a community itself, which I think, you know, we go from the fringe to the center, we go from a temple to our house, we go from a place to a people. And I think that's all the trajectory of doctors.

David Harvey  30:22  
And it's quite powerful, then, isn't it when you when you think about that, that, and I hope this comes across clearly that that some of these nuances are all part of just brilliant writing from Luke the Theologian to sort of help us see what Jesus is doing to tell the story. And then you think, you know, Luke six, I want to I want to create an organized account. But this organized account, organized how it already is, when he opens his gospel that question, well, we might say well organized, we naturally think chronologically, right, we think organized as a neat and tidy. But what if he's also saying organized, theologically organized to help you see certain things that the, the gospel that Miroslav volf, the Eastern European theologian who is at Yale now I believe, he talks about how Jesus's ministry is against exclusion, which is really colorful language in that sense, because what we like to say is that Jesus is inclusive. But volf points out that actually, Jesus is not really good at being inclusive, because he's evolved, has this great language this Jesus has, has the, I can't remember the exact word to use. He's now jumping, he says something like Jesus has the audacity to ask people to repent. And he actually, so he's against exclusion. But he also challenges people on the basis of what it looks like to follow him, you know, and think about Zacchaeus, Jesus doesn't challenge Zacchaeus on that Zacchaeus just figures it out. Or if I'm going to be, I need to do some, I need to sort out some debt issues and things like that around here. So there's, there's quite a sort of brilliant sense in all of this, that even in the language around temple to house, we're seeing Luke point out to us just how much against exclusion Jesus was. widows are easily excluded. You know, tax collectors are easily excluded, children are easily excluded, blind people easily excluded. But Jesus's ministry isn't working like that. And when you were talking, john, I couldn't help but also think about, then, once you get to x, the work of the Holy Spirit, you know, you have, we're off down to sumeria, because that can't be right. The Holy Spirit's going down there. We've alluded to it already in this series. You know, Peter talking to Cornelius going well, it's lovely that you want to follow Jesus, but it's not really for you. And, and the Holy Spirit is driving, you know, you know, this sense that you want to build walls and lines, but you're not going to get them, the Holy Spirit's going to want to break those walls and those lines, which is why I love this language of, of against

John Andrews   33:15  
exclusion. Beautiful. And isn't it a beautiful nuance that Jesus brings to this David, and even in the parable, where he actually says, in the context of both men, that both of them went up to the temple to pray. So you expect the Pharisees to go up to the temple to pray? Yes, you're not expecting the tax collector, to go up to pray. And even there in that in the subtlety of that there's no distinction made, about, about, you know, both men being able to go into the temple to pray, they're both to Jesus just mix that as a as a statement. And then it's only later as he qualifies the content of their prayers, which are are, well, incredible in the, in the comparison of the two. But But of course, both men went up to pray, one seen himself as righteous before God, and the language I thought was incredible, you know, were introduced to the parable to some who were confident that their own righteousness and looked on everybody else, and actually, you know, trusting in themselves that they are righteous, and despising is actually harsh, isn't. It is harsh, and I think that the spacing language is really captured then, in Jesus repeated nuance when he says of the Pharisees, as the Pharisees speaks. Well, I'm glad I'm not even like him. Well, of course, if you despise someone, you you absolutely won't want to be like him. But of course, I think I think one of the subtle things within that is that the faricy is falling into one of the most terrible traps that Are lurk in all religion and in all journeys of faith, and that is the trap of comparison. where, you know, I've been in the club for a while I know this stuff, I know how to pray it, I'm good, and you're not. And therefore there is a I subtle, but dangerous human propensity to compare ourselves with people that we despise in order to make ourselves feel more accepted. And Jesus is, of course, the last thing, that that mentality clean out of the water, you're not accepted, because you're better than the tax collector, you're accepted, because you are loved by God. It's nothing to do where you grade yourself in society, you are accepted, as much as the fact that the tax collector was accepted on the basis that you are a image carrier of the God of heaven, who is doing everything through Jesus to redeem you back to that glorious image. And you're accepted misses on that basis on that basis, alone, which is a hard thing for us as humans, even even people who claim to be like Jesus redeemed humans, we slip into, well, you know, I'm a pretty good person, and I've done this, and I've done that, and, and therefore I'm better than than him. And we would never articulate that. But we certainly

David Harvey  36:24  
probably thought, well, we don't verbalize it. But we live it. And that's an interesting thing about the parable. So I've heard this parable preached before. And, and it's almost as if people get a little bit throwing, a lot of interpreters get thrown by the final verse. And so the parable gets, gets taught as this is why you need to be humble. But what you're articulating there, I completely agree with the opening line of the parable is the shaping one, about being confident trusting in Europe, in yourself and your own? You know, I mean, quite literally, the Greek you've alluded to, but it's so interesting, that certain trust in themselves in the sea are righteous, righteous, you know, if I walk that's, that's it, that's a statement. So the parables not about, be humble, don't be humble, because you can always take it away. If you read it simply as a parable, his humility as the parent, the tax collector, sorry, that the Pharisees mistake was announcing a load in the temple. But the point that you've made that I really affirm is the problem is that either of them think that the things that they do, make them righteous, and that's the Lucan theological point that you're going to see

John Andrews   37:46  
across, especially. And I think, I think the tax collector grabs that when he says, just be merciful to me, a sinner. So there's a recognition that there's nothing in himself that can position him righteously before God. So there's, there's just not a thing he can do. And, you know, the nuances. He's not just feeling like that, because he's a tax collector, but he understands something I think Jesus in the conclusion said, so those that humble are exalted, those exalt are humbled. And I think it's because Jesus is, is leaning into this idea here is a man who understands his acceptance, his righteous, this has nothing to do with his own graft, nothing to do with his position in society, good, bad or ugly, nothing to do with what he has achieved, but everything to do with what God has done. And of course, ironically, both men are, are in a position of thinking about their own righteousness in in the one place where their unrighteousness in the context of their world can be truly redeemed, and, and transformed. And I think, I think you've, you've got that sense of tension within the time. Well,

David Harvey  39:05  
he looks the theology, it's really, it's so clear, isn't it the In truth, they're both in exactly the same place. They both are dead in their sin to use very polite language and predict where the conversation might go in a few minutes. But, but also both of them are offered mercy. And you really get this the complexity about how we see God's you're marking us as righteous in Christ is that the only real difference between the two of them is that the faricy refuses to accept that he's exactly the same as the tax collector. And by refusing to accept that he then can't accept the gift of God's mercy. And to me, this is the problem with self righteousness theologically. If you can't first accept that you need it, then you won't ever take it. You know, you won't take the medicine if you don't think you're sick. So the reason Isn't that the Pharisees and I think this is a really important nuance, the reason that the tax collector goes down having been made righteous isn't because God likes tax collectors and doesn't like Pharisees. It's because the tax collector realized he needed mercy. And the Pharisees didn't end by there and there, then you, you basically start a chain of events, the moment you realize you think I don't need mercy, you know, won't accept mercy, you know, won't accept forgiveness, you know, won't accept grace. And so I think that's where the That to me is how you understand the humility piece. Is that the what is the humility that leads us to the kingdom of God, it's accepting that you need help get to accepting that you're dead and can't raise yourself, do us really sort of Luke in language? Would that resonate with you? Oh,

John Andrews   40:45  
totally, totally. And I think that's really grabbed even in a lovely little phrase, the Choose within here. It says the tax collector, when he was praying, stood at a distance. And that's not quite clear. Is he standing at a distance from the pharmacy? Or is he just standing at it? And of course, as you've already alluded to, David, there were various sort of zones in the temple on the pharmacy would certainly have qualified to enter the court of the Israelites are sometimes called the court of the man, because he would be ceremonially clean, able to enter that the tax collector, even if he were a Jew, could not enter that court. Because he's filthy. Okay, so standing at a distance, he stood at a distance. So somewhere in that quarter, the Gentiles it's not even like, so the quarter the Gentiles is the furthest point away from the holiest of holies. He's not

David Harvey  41:52  
always outside.

John Andrews   41:54  
Yeah. I mean, you're virtually at the door. So it's a big court. I mean, it's a massive court. You know, the temple was 35. Well, Herod's temple 35 acres in size, and it's a humongous thing, took nearly a third of the floor space of first century Jerusalem. This is a monster building. And the Pharisees are the tax collector is somewhere in the immensity of this crowd and the narration of Jesus. And he doesn't even dare to come close to the presence of God. And I think that's, that captures that idea of so the Pharisees are very happy to just walk in and walk wherever he needs to walk. In fact, apart from the court of the priests, he can literally go anywhere in that temple precinct, he wants to go, the tax collector cannot be understands it. He doesn't kind of say this carefully. He doesn't push back against that he accepts it because he accepts that actually, without the mercy of God. I am lost, and therefore, is made righteous. Out of that humility, I love I love the nuance of that I sort of within that

David Harvey  43:08  
pejorative, come with me on a rabbit trail for a second thing, john, and at some point, I'm very happy for you to kind of just pull up the handbrake or the park break and say, David, you got us last, right? But, and please bear with me, because I don't want this to sound pretentious in that sense. But go for it. I found myself triggered in the right sense of the word. When I read the Pharisees sorry that I keep saying faricy when I read the tax collector's prayer in Greek, right? And so like, I constantly wish my Greek was was better than it was. But I've decided that that's just the nature of reading Greek is you always wish it was better than than it was. But I saw the word Have mercy and which is Alaska. My is the is the word and it just triggered a memory. But I recognize that word. What's interesting is Luke never uses it anywhere else in his gospel or in Act. In fact, he only appears in one other place in the whole New Testament, which is in which is Hebrews chapter two. Right? So I said, Why did you know it? Was that strange? Why is that? Why did that word sound familiar? And then I remembered that, of course, what it reminded me of is this quite theologically complex, sort of discussion that goes over in Romans chapter 325, right, where the term is Hill esteri on now, Hill asterion in Romans, which is often translated, I think the new international translation translates Hill asterion is sacrifice of atonement. Yeah, right.

John Andrews   44:45  
So again, bear with creation propitiation was the old king james word. Yes.

David Harvey  44:50  
propitiation, right. Sure. No, actually, that's quite interesting. So what the Pharisees he actually says, Sorry, then it again, what the tax collector actually says, I guess Super excited about this john and start saying the wrong words. This is me trying to be precise here and I can't even do it with the characters. God propitiate me, a sinner, right. So so in the in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which Paul and Luke definitely would have used, the word Hill asterion is used to describe the Mersey seats in the most holy place, and I started. So I just, this is the little push that I'm going to make, maybe I'm stretching it. But it's interesting that for this one parable in the Gospel, Luke uses a word which is connected in the route to this idea of the mercy seat right. Now the word Hill stereo doesn't appear very much in the New Testament either, again, only in Hebrews chapter nine, and in Romans three. So holding this is the this is where we get into the rabbit trail thing that holding all of this in your mind. Let's just have a quick look at Romans three, full disclosure to our listeners who are just getting to know us. My PhD work was in Paul so it's taken me 11 episodes to really try and get us into a bit of Paul and discussion. Sure if our listeners can hold the whole of the parable in their head from an including the introduction, Romans three, verse 21. But now, apart from the law, apart from Torah, the righteousness of God has been made known to which the law and the prophets testify. So we're talking about righteousness again, but not righteousness that you get by things that you do or achieve or things that you get by being within a particular grouping or category of person. Now, verse 22, this righteousness is given through trust in Jesus Christ, to all who believe or faith in Jesus Christ, all who believe. Now, think about this line, then everything we've said, right? There is no difference between Jew or Gentile. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are all justified, which is an English word meaning made righteous freely by his grace through redemption that came by Christ Jesus, right. I mean, the the parallels are profound here. Then you get verse 25, God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, or a hill esteri on aura propitiation, through the shedding of his blood to be received by faith or trust. He did this and this is a profound we need to do a series on this in the future. God did this to demonstrate His righteousness, right? What if you Why is God demonstrating his righteousness? Like, why did we, since when did God need to prove himself to us? Right? Well, because in his forbearance, he left the sins committed beforehand, unpunished. And he did it to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and righteous himself, and the one who makes righteous those who have trust in Jesus, but then they just keep bear with me here, john, if this is making sense. Notice Paul's next very next question, verse 27. Where then, is boasting? Right? Well, how does the fancy Well, I'm glad I'm not like this. I'm glad I'm letting that Paul's answer where that is boasting, it is excluded. Because of what law Paul says what Torah excludes boasting a Torah that requires works? No, because of a law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith, apart from works of the law. And then just one of my favorite pieces of polling argument? Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles? To? Yes, of Gentiles to? Here's a very classic Jewish writer, which Paul is talking about, in a way where every Jewish person here, O Israel, the Lord our God, He is the only God that God so if there is monotheism, the belief is only one God doesn't mean that we only believe in one God. But really, Jewish people don't just believe in by the time of Paul, they don't just believe in kind of functional monotheism, where we only have one God, they mean there is only one yard. So if there is only one God and that God is the God of the Jews, well, either the Gentiles have no God puzzle that doesn't work. Or they only have one choice of a God, they have. They have God the same God of the Jews now, I can't I'm flicking back and forth my two pages here,

like I can't help but think, Luke, student of Paul faricy in the tax collector is a parabolic connection between Paul's theology and Romans three here, because you have boasting, you have no distinction. You have God is the God of everybody we have it doesn't matter what you do you receive it through trust, and it was just that little trigger that Luke's only time Luke uses this hill last Hill, Alaska, my type word, and the only time Paul references to hell are steriod. So that's my little rabbit hole. JOHN, where do you go with that?

John Andrews   49:55  
I think it's beautiful. I don't think that's a rabbit hole at all. I you know, Again, we would want to believe and we do believe that there is, though, there is dynamic diversity within the biblical text, we, we also believe that text is guided by a supernatural provisional hand of God that that actually connects these ideas together. And, you know, again, when we're able to just not just look at the parable as we've been encouraging people to do, but then see the parable in the flow of that particular moment or passage, then see it within the context of maybe the goal of the author, and then see it fit together with other arguments in the biblical text. I think then you realize that here, when Jesus tells this parable, he seeds, something that ultimately Paul will harvest and build on. And Dr. Luke, a student of Paul, a friend of all a traveler with Paul is absolutely so within Dr. Luke is gathering together as information. And remember, the Pharisees in the tax collector is a unique Luke and parable. Yeah, so no other no other gospel writer has egos. It's like a light comes on, because Paul's been going on and it's all Paul ever talks about is this stuff, every synagogue, he goes to a real distinction, no distinction. Absolutely. It's gone on and on. And then he is gathering his information and and one of the scrolls somebody goes, Hey, I remember writing the story down for say, the tax collector, where is that? And when he gets it, he suddenly realizes, wow, here is a an incredible link to the trajectory that Jesus is creating for this new gathered community called the church is beautiful. It's magnificent. It's, it's glorious. And of course, you know, it's those bread crumbs, you've you've picked up on a magnificent bread crumbs, so easy to miss. And, you know, unless you're really looking for it, you're not going to see it. But but but when you pick up that bread crumb we got well, either that is a colossal COVID coincidence, or this is part of a god incidental type conversation that he wants us to get ahold of. And, and the parable of the Pharisees and the tax collector, perfectly illustrates the tension of righteousness in the law, which will always feel a bit like self righteousness, and righteousness that comes by faith in Jesus Christ, which, as the tax collector, understood, hey, I couldn't have worked for this, earn this or achieve this, this has come to me by God and God alone.

David Harvey  52:41  
So here's a here's a little quote for your poem from TS Eliot, right. And I think just as I don't want our listeners to sort of go well, this is an interesting theological conversation about righteousness, because you just threw a comment in there. self righteousness. You know, TS Eliot says this half the harm that is done in this world, is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm, but the harm does not interest them, or they do not see it, or they justify it, because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves. Okay, that's it for Episode 11. Thanks so much for listening, and we hope you enjoyed it. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something we set, you can reach out to us on podcast at to tex.com or by liking and following the to text podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you did enjoy the episode, we'd love it if you left a review or a comment where you're listening from. And if you really enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend. Don't forget you can listen to all our podcasts at two texts.com or wherever you get your podcast from. But that's it for this episode. We will be back tomorrow. So until then, goodbye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai