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[00:00:00] David: Well, John, we need to inform our listeners at the start of this week that you are navigating this podcast in the space of deep temptation because your family are. Cooking cookies in the background while you're

[00:00:19] John: true. It's true. I'm in my little study at home and my wife or Nana is cooking with Abigail, our granddaughter and the smell of baking cookies and cinnamon is torturous, David.

[00:00:35] It is torturous. I think heaven will smell something like this. Maybe a bit of a coffee aroma kicking in there as well. And a bit of cinnamon, a bit of coffee, a bit of cinnamon. I mean, I would be set for life, mate. It'd just be marvellous. So, yes, just, just before sitting down at my desk to record with you.

[00:00:56] I grabbed a cookie, which was a terrible mistake, and now I am salivating desperately and trying not to spit all over my microphone as I've gobbled this down. But it's, it's, it's tremendous. I only wish our listeners could smell what I can smell.

[00:01:13] David: Cinnamon cookies being cooked is one of those smells. I think we can smell it. It's, it's what, the certain smells live in your memory. And I think that's one of them that I'm, I'm a couple of thousand miles away, a completely different time of the day. And I can imagine the smell and I'm plotting.

[00:01:30] It's super early in the morning here. And I'm trying to think, is there a way I can drive to work and find a cinnamon cookie on route somewhere?

[00:01:38] John: Come on, come on, come on now. 

[00:01:40] David: So we are still in Acts 15 and we're leaning into James's speech now. So we've heard this in the last episode, Peter's sort of short speech, which alludes heavily to the Cornelius story. And then from verse 12, we don't. Hear what Barnabas and Paul say, but we probably can guess what they're saying. Cause we hear it elsewhere, but we actually get a sermon from, from James.

[00:02:07] Don't we? And you're going to read that for

[00:02:09] John: I am going to read it now. And can I say, I'm still buzzing from our last podcast. Acts 15, 8 and connecting that to Cornelius. Seriously, mate, that was, that was just fantastic. If, if our listeners haven't heard that, please, please, please just for the sheer excitement of my voice, if nothing else, it's worth listening to.

[00:02:28] So here we go. Verse 12 and it says this, the whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. When they finished, James spoke up. Brothers, he said, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles.

[00:02:55] The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written, After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent, its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it. That the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord who does these things, things known from long ago. It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read daily.

[00:03:48] in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

[00:03:52] David: What a, what a speech from James. 

[00:03:55] John: Nice introduction to James for us, isn't it? It's the first time. So we should probably clear up who this James is

[00:04:02] David: Hmm.

[00:04:03] John: because there's a lot of James's knocking around in the Gospels and the Book of Acts. So, my conviction, my understanding would be that this is James, the half brother of Jesus. And and He's, and I think his, his rise here is, is really quite dynamic in the sense that we clearly get the impression in the Gospels that his brothers weren't particularly impressed by him, by, by Jesus, and, and there seems to be on a number of occasions a bit of pushback, and we're not quite sure, at least from the biblical record, when James and Jude The other half brother of Jesus become followers of Jesus, but clearly something Dynamic has taken place.

[00:04:53] We're not only James as a follower of Jesus, but he's now a fairly prominent Influencer in the Jerusalem Church standing up and speaking on behalf of the Apostles and the elders and of course, he'll go on to write what we call the book of James, which I mean my goodness has Jesus teaching saturated all the way through it.

[00:05:14] It's just incredible. The allusions to the Sermon on the Mount, for example, in James's teaching, it gives me the impression James was hanging around when that was being done. It's just profound. Is that fair summary or is that 

[00:05:27] David: No, I like that?

[00:05:28] I mean, I think you've, you're seeing in Acts 15, this development, I think of the core, the core leaders of the early Christian movement.

[00:05:41] John: Hmm.

[00:05:42] David: Paul again, to, to, to draw the illusion to Galatians, to, Paul, Peter, John, James, that seems to be your sort of drivers of Christianity in this, in this era.

[00:05:55] One of the things I love is that the New Testament doesn't attempt to cover up their difficulties in this journey. Right. Peter has the Cornelius situation and the acts Galatians situation, James, likewise, flip flops a little bit that seems to be Paul doesn't want to hide anyone from that, they, they flip flop a little bit where yeah, Gentiles, maybe Gentiles, but coming in as Jews or backwards and forwards.

[00:06:19] And here I think in Acts 15, we're seeing them solidify the position of the early church. But I think they have. Establish themselves as, as the people who have the right to make that. statement, right? These are, these are the movers and shakers of, of this early. And it's beautiful the way they lean into each other.

[00:06:44] Like I love, brothers listen to me, Simon has described to us how God first intervened. I, I think And again, you get this very classic New Testament model here as well, of, of leaning into Old Testament text to define this, but yes, I think that's how I would I would see it. And these, I think this is the group that, that Paul seems to interact with, that the early church is telling the story of.

[00:07:07] It's it's, it's good.

[00:07:09] John: No, it is good. And of course, a little sort of thought that we, we didn't really touch on, but it's, it's worth alluding to before we get into James's speech is that if we go all the way back to verse four of chapter 15, 

[00:07:22] David: Mm. 

[00:07:23] John: when Paul and Barnabas arrive in Jerusalem, having been sent or loosed, loosed, we've come across that idea before.

[00:07:31] In in the book of Acts, loosed by the church in Antioch to go and represent them. I love it. It says in verse four, they reported everything God had done through them to the apostles and elders. So I love this idea that before it gets into public debate, these men have surrendered. Submitted the report to apostles and elders in a way that allows them to think about it and digest it Maybe before we get into a more a more public debate and it's interesting And I just, again, I love the little connection, a little incidental But it's the same reporting language Barnabas and Paul use when they report back to Antioch.

[00:08:15] So you're getting this lovely idea of a reporting back to the church that they serve.

[00:08:21] David: Mm.

[00:08:22] John: which has loosed them, sent them out, and now Antioch has loosed them again. And they're reporting to the Apostles and Elders. And again, you can see this lovely the, the, although it's a caustic environment, although it's a combative environment, and there's a lot at stake here yet Paul and Barnabas are also following can I use the word etiquette?

[00:08:44] They're following good behavior, good practice. They're trying to do things properly to ensure that That their point of view is heard properly and therefore represented properly, and it's that early conversation. It may have helped James as well. So it's not just, I think he's, I think from James's speech, he's profoundly influenced by Peter.

[00:09:05] There's almost, he's almost like copies sections of it word for word. It's a repeat, isn't it? Some of it. But it could be, of course, if Paul and Barnabas have rocked up a little bit early in set with the Apostles and Elders, then James has had the advantage of hearing first hand some of the things the Lord has done in the Gentile world, and that may help him.

[00:09:23] Because it's interesting, isn't it? He goes from sort of Agreeing with Peter to an encoding prophecy, sort of making a judgment. So he goes very quickly into, Oh, this is my judgment, which is, which is, a fairly authoritative position to take in the, in the middle of a debate within that.

[00:09:43] David: think that, I mean, I love what you're saying, and I think it's worth stating that the, there are spaces and times where leadership will get us, bad leadership will lead us to bad places. The New Testament's response to that is not to have no leadership. And I think. There can be, I understand it within the contemporary context, a suspicion around questions of leadership. I think we said this in an episode recently, or I think I said this, let me not drag you into my heresies, but I think I said this in a, in a, in a recent episode. I think more harm has been done to the church by people failing to lead than has been done by bad leaders. And. And that's not to dismiss the bad leaders, that's to encourage us to see that in the New Testament, there are leaders and that they do lead.

[00:10:36] But then on this, in terms of the context of this, I, I totally agree with everything you've said. There clearly appears to have been, debates behind the scenes, but I think this, I'm imagining the sort of thing you see in some of your ancient kind of set Greek Roman movies that, The wise people will all bring their perspectives and they will, they will say, and I think Luke's giving us James's perspective because we haven't heard from him on this yet.

[00:11:06] We know where Peter stands. We definitely know where Paul and Barnabas stand. So I think it's important that we read this. It's my judgment at not as James saying, so this therefore is the rule. But as James saying, I am aligned. With what has been said by these others already. And, and what a gorgeous sentence.

[00:11:28] We should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. I mean, I mean, it's quite a, it's quite a, it's quite a stunning statement, actually, isn't it?

[00:11:39] John: It's, it's, and again, I, I think there's a lovely echo to Peter. It would be really interesting if we put Peter's comments and James comments literally side by side. But, but you've got, you've got Peter saying in verse 10 that, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither you nor our ancestors are able to bear?

[00:12:01] So that's a very stark challenge to the, to the audience. And then, and then James's version of that is, we shouldn't make it difficult. I, I, I love the, I love the symmetry of those comments. I, I think that they are echoing. And of course, what I love about James is, he makes that comment in verse 19 off the back of quoting the prophets.

[00:12:26] So he's not just going, oh yeah, Peter's made a good argument. I think it's a good idea. Like, Peter's been around a while. Yeah, okay, I'm lining up with Peter. But he's clearly agreeing with Peter, but then adding his own commentary. And in his own commentary, he is presenting a biblical conviction for this idea, which I think is superb.

[00:12:46] Absolutely amazing that he's quoting the prophets here, and allowing that then to inform his judgment in verse 19. that we shouldn't make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. And so I love that little insertion. Whereas Peter alludes to the Old Testament and his experience with Cornelius is absolutely saturated in that conversation, which we talked about last time.

[00:13:17] I think you've got here James, he doesn't just allude to the prophets, he quotes the prophets and quotes quite profoundly here in this context.

[00:13:26] David: just following that theme, so the conversation begins with I mean, the, the chapter begins, the, the circumstance begins with this statement, unless you're circumcised according to the customs taught by Moses, you cannot be saved. Then in verse five of chapter 15, that's doubled down on the Gentiles must be circumcised.

[00:13:45] And required to keep the law of Moses. So then Peter speaks and look at this, right? Brothers, that some time ago, God made a choice that among you, the Gentiles might hear from my lips, the message of the gospel, right? And then, then, and then the verse that we loved so much in the last episode, God, who is the heart, nor witness to them by giving the Holy spirit, he did not discriminate between them and us.

[00:14:11] Right? So then verse 11, so we believe it is through grace. That we are saved just as they are. So then Paul and Barnabas say some things. We can imagine what they said. And then, and then James gets up and he says, Simon's decide how God first intervened to choose a people for his name. So that language of choice is back again, right?

[00:14:33] Then he, then he dumps in. Some scriptural text, but notice this, right? I just, it struck me as you were talking just there. So I'll return, I will rebuild, I will rebuild, I will restore. This is God speaking, right? Even all the Gentiles who bear my name says the Lord who does these things. Right. And then, so, so we've had this God made a choice.

[00:14:56] God made a choice. God made a choice, right? God witnessed to this choice. He made a choice. He does these things. So then James says. We must make sure we don't make it difficult, right? And, and it's, it's like the trajectory of, of Acts 15 is to make the point via Peter's voice, Paul and Barnaby's voice, James voice.

[00:15:13] God is doing something here and our actions are getting in the way of God doing something. And we want to be really, really cautious about that. It just struck me as you were speaking there, John. I don't know that I'd seen it so cognizantly before that God is the active agent through all of

[00:15:29] John: Yeah,

[00:15:30] David: And that.

[00:15:30] That we need to stop acting because our acting is making it difficult. I mean, am I over egging the pudding there or putting too much cinnamon on the cookie? Yes,

[00:15:40] John: can dump all the cinnamon you want on that. That's, that's great. No, no, I think that's absolutely beautiful. And again, that, I think it contrasts to that sort of conversation we had a couple of podcasts ago of, of the idea of salvation being moved into our hands when actually, In the context of the book of Acts, it's almost a God thing.

[00:16:03] God's doing something. And it's like James is bringing us back to that idea. No, God is doing this. In fact, he's been doing it for a while. And now in Jesus, this, this is really crystallized. We, we've got a, an idea of what he is building and what, to use the Amos phrase All Gentiles who bear my name, now what that looks like, they are Gentiles in their own right bearing his name. So I, I, I love that there is, there is a beautiful affirmation that the Gentiles can bear his name as Gentiles. wHich, which, is alluded to in Amos and now James affirms. And, and that sense of then, and again, he's very explicit, isn't he? So he, in quoting, in quoting Amos, he absolutely emphasizes, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, and then in his conclusion, therefore we must not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

[00:17:03] So, so that he's making the connection really powerfully that, that, that we've got to. allow the God who is at work building something, rebuilding something, restoring something to do what he wants to do, even if some of those ideas are difficult to us in allowing the Gentiles to bear his name as Gentiles.

[00:17:24] I, I remember our conversation millions of years ago about the Ethiopian eunuch, I remember you saying, he came out of the water, he was still a eunuch. And it was a really little, it was a wee, ah, do you know, that's so true, that's right, I know that, but when you hear it, like, you go, yeah, absolutely, he's still a eunuch, but he's now a Jesus following eunuch, he's a eunuch, so these are still Gentiles, but now they are Jesus following Gentiles, they are They are Gentiles saved by grace.

[00:17:51] So I think that's, I think all of that is absolutely beautiful right up to verse 19. I think, I think James has got it. Indeed.

[00:18:01] David: Also fascinating how and you see this is, I think this is so important to, to, to say exactly to your, exactly to your point, but let's not, let's not miss it, that the argument is not, so therefore let us do away with all these things which have gone before, but rather the argument is The, all these things that went before have been pointing to this.

[00:18:31] And I mean, I, I just, I think that's just really significant because I, I mean, again, I, I, I'm stuck in acts 15 bouncing back in forward to Galatians, but this is, this is significant that here's Paul's question, Galatians three. Why then the law, right? It's like, well, what was this all about?

[00:18:55] Right. And it, it pauses this, it was added because of transgressions until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made and it was ordained through angels by a mediator. Now a mediator involved more than one, one party, but God is one. So is the law then opposed to the promises of God?

[00:19:15] Well, certainly not. For if a law had been given that could make alive, then righteousness would indeed come through the law. But I think about this for a sentence, but the scripture has imprisoned all things under the power of sin. So the, what was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

[00:19:34] I mean, I mean, what a dense, dense statement from Paul right there, but this notion that, that the scripture is holding everything together and actually at some level. And we know this to be true because it's even been alluded to in the very passage where we're, we're, we're talking about that, that, this whole conversation about us being unable to carry the weight of these things.

[00:20:03] We've talked about this across this, across these podcasts, haven't we? That we've got to be careful of making it difficult. We've got to be, there's a, there's a confession that we know that scripture makes things hard for us. We know that the law made things difficult for us. What Paul puts in, I think, is a missing piece is that the law was doing its best to hold everything in place because we knew that something else was coming and, and, and the something else was coming and it was going to release all things.

[00:20:31] What I love about the leading back into Amos by James here is he's making explicit in case anyone missed it. This was always God's plan. God's plan was always that the Gentiles. Would come in but that's the key thing and you've not missed it. John. It's so important that they are now Gentiles who bear my name They're not now Jews, right and that's not to kick Jews out That must be it must be always explicitly stated but that God's plan even in Amos It's just, it's not like Jesus came along and said, so we have a new idea, right?

[00:21:04] And I think as Christians, we have to be really careful of imposing that on the text. That, that, that Jesus comes along and goes, here, here's a new plan. We're going to do something different now. No Gentiles bearing my name. And I love the fact that James does something that we see John the Baptist do. We see Paul do.

[00:21:20] That he gives us Amos and then one line from Isaiah. Just, just squeeze, just in case, just in case you think I'm just using one verse badly. I'm just going to point out Isaiah says the same thing.

[00:21:31] John: Absolutely. Absolutely. And in fact, the, the, the allusion to Isaiah 45 is absolutely gorgeous, gather together and come assemble you fugitives from the nations. And then I love this. It, it sort of this, this declaration of, of God's desire. He goes on to say and there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a savior, and there is none End 1 But me, turn to me and be saved all you ends of the earth.

[00:22:03] For I am God and there is no other. And again I heard the echo of that when you read Galatians, this idea of God who is one, the God, it's It's that uniformity of idea. It's that uniformity of thought. That he is the one. There's no other. He is the savior. But of course, when we translate that forward to where we are now, he's not just the savior of a people, but he's the savior of the fugitives from the nations from from the nations of the world.

[00:22:35] And this, this inclusive idea that of course runs all the way through Isaiah. I mean, Isaiah's understanding of salvation to the Gentiles is quite, is quite profound as a, as a message. But it's a beautiful illusion, I think, within that.

[00:22:53] David: Oh, it's, it's so good. I mean, I, I mean, I would say to all our listeners, please go and read a his I of 45 and 46, because I mean, it's like, I, I think maybe Paul just read this and channeled it. 'cause you also have before me, every knee will bow, every tongue will, will, will, it's all the, the sort of language you hear in Philippians.

[00:23:13] But the, but the piece that, that, that, this. Reminds you there is no God apart from me. And this is a point that Paul wants to make. I think he's alluding to it in Galatians 3 here. God is one, right? I mean, it's Shema. But in Romans 3, he makes the point, is God not also the God of the Gentiles? Which is a, it's a Brilliant point, and we miss this as moderns, I think, all the time.

[00:23:39] That if God is one, and that means there is only one God, God must be the God of the Gentiles, right? So, so whatever your theology involves, God has to be. The God of your enemies, and this is something we get wrong all the time that Paul never gets wrong That all those people that you don't like all those people that you think oh, no you need to be like this God is also their God so so God sees it As, and this is what God is witnessing to us.

[00:24:10] I think in X 15, God sees it as his responsibility to be their God. And, and I think we like God being our God. I think we like God being our God and saying to us behave like this so that he can be your God. And, and the question in the new Testament and the old Testament is never, is he your God? The question is, is our acknowledgement of that, how we.

[00:24:37] Embrace that, how we exclude others from this. So it's, it's so beautiful that this deep controversy that they're encountering in Acts 15, the apostles and elders are like, but this is the story of scripture. This is the story of monotheism. This is the story of our confession of Shema that we all said 10 minutes ago, or this morning, or, and we'll all say it after we're done here tonight, that this is so beautifully aligned.

[00:25:04] It's oh my goodness, it's gorgeous.

[00:25:07] John: It is. It's stunning. And again, I love the fact that the James is calling on the prophets to assist him. So again, and it's an important idea for us, I think. And we started off these podcasts in chapter 15 thinking about the contentious issues at hand, but But ultimately, the way through is, is a truth based conversation, so though it's all going to look very different in some quarters to what it looked like before, with Gentiles bearing the name of the Lord without being circumcised, without, as it were embracing Moses in the way that some expect them to. Yet, at the same time, we get this sort of dynamic bringing together, this idea that even in the midst of contention, truth can find a way to pull us through to a result that we didn't think was possible, because truth ultimately is, is about setting men and women free into the purpose of God. So, I, I love the fact we start with something deeply contentious that looks like it's going to fracture the church, but it's the word.

[00:26:22] Of the Lord. It's it's the word of truth. It's not just the words of wise men. It's the words of the scriptures that are guiding the conversation here. And James in his wisdom is not just relying on the force of personality and Paul and Barnabas in the room would have been pretty forceful. Or, or the testimony of Peter, and my goodness, how could you argue against Peter's testimony with Cornelius?

[00:26:45] And even some of the brilliance of the opponents of Paul and Barnabas and Peter in this argument. But actually, James just hits the scripture button. He goes back to the word of God and he says, look, this is our building block and this is what we've got to lean into and we all know deep down God's been about this for a long time.

[00:27:05] So we need to find a way to get on board, even if we're not desperately comfortable with it, but it's a truth based appeal. It is not simply a cultural or a personality or, or, or something that just makes life a little bit easier. It is a, and I think we've got to keep remembering that. That they're not just adapting for the sake of it.

[00:27:27] They are adapting because there's some revelation of truth in the conversation.

[00:27:32] David: I mean, hermeneutically, this is really important, John, and I, my, my sort of evangelical background makes me deeply uncomfortable with what I'm about to say, but, but I think what we tend to do. And I think this is even what's going on perhaps here, but I think we as Christians still do it is we decide what the text is saying, and then we ensure that our, that God fits into that interpretation.

[00:28:03] And we do that with the best of intentions. I don't think we do it because we want to be bad. I don't think we do it because we want to be nasty. But very often we're so fixed in what we think the text means that we cannot account for God acting differently. What I love about what I see in the New Testament is they don't go, eh, forget the text, then we'll just follow whatever it seems God's doing because they're very aware of the fact.

[00:28:28] I mean, Acts has made it explicit. There's people out there saying God's name, doing God's things that are not the ways of God, right? They're doing things that look like and sound like God, but they're not. But what they do is prayerfully, thoughtfully, and. Diligently, they're willing to adjust their view of God.

[00:28:46] Sorry, when God does something that surprises them, they go back to the text and they look again and they realize. Oh, wait, the text. I mean, Peter in Cornelius is a classic example of this, like, like, like, no God, I do this because this is what scripture says. And then Peter revises that. Now here we have him a few chapters later, beautifully articulating.

[00:29:08] Look at what, look at what God is doing in Christ. And I think that confession that they have, that God is ahead of us, that scripture will always speak to that. But our reading of scripture. Might need constant revision and adjusting because of what God is doing. And then we'll never end up in a place where, where God does something and we think, Oh my goodness, we have no bearing in scripture for that.

[00:29:38] But there's a huge difference between scripture has always been saying this, and we've always been saying this from scripture. And I love how the early apostles are so willing to throw down their Interpretation when God and scripture says something different to them,

[00:29:55]