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[00:00:00] David: Well, John, I think most of our listeners are aware of the fact that we don't record live two podcasts. So when we are doing our recordings they're a little bit earlier than they actually make it out to to, to the public. And so we are here today recording and I. More than a little struck by the symmetry of our recording schedule that is not planned. 

[00:01:13] And I just got very excited when I figured out what had happened. 

[00:01:18] John: Indeed, indeed. So for our, our listeners, we are recording this episode on the 25th of January, which just happens to be the The face that celebrates St. Paul's conversion. And guess where we happen to be starting on two text podcasts. But it's the conversion of Sauls. That's quite an amazing gorgeous, coincidental moment. 

[00:01:42] Absolutely. And as you say, totally, absolutely unplanned. But we, we got, I suppose it, it shows the level of our, our. The stuff that excites us and maybe how, how sad we are really that this has really excited us that actually we've, we we're, we're recording about St. Paul's conversion on the Feast of St. 

[00:02:02] Paul's conversion. So there we are. Marvelous. 

[00:02:06] David: Absolutely I am. And, and of course as just to complete the circle of of my own life. Paul is in, in church history, of course Paul is also the patron saint of theologians. So, so all of these people that get super excited about the Bible think about Paul, who also got super excited about. 

[00:02:24] And and, and probably more excited than, than even we do. I think is fair to say, but also that, the, the KET in me also points out that the feast of the conversion of St. Paul lines up with Robert Burns days. So, so I get to, I get to engage in all of my great joys of, of, of leaning into my scottishness today, and also being excited about St. 

[00:02:48] Paul's conversion. And I, I suppose, maybe, I imagine some of our listeners perhaps quite a few of our listeners actually might not often track with the sort of feast days and holy days of the church calendar. And, but so it's worth just pausing even thinking that, that. in the underlying nature of the day that celebrates the conversion of Paul is actually a thankfulness, really for all of our knowledge of Jesus. 

[00:03:21] Because if we live in this sort of Christianized part of the world, and that's a very. A, a very complex term I realize, but if we live in that, essentially think about the argument we've been having up until now in acts or the argument that Luke's been presenting. Essentially, if you're not a Jewish follower of Torah, but and love and follow Jesus, then then the conversion of St. 

[00:03:48] Paul is a seminal moment in your life, even though it happened a couple of thousand years ago. This is the breakout of what we've been seeing building in Acts, and I don't think it's a hard math John to do, to say, oh, we are here as Jesus followers today. and there's a direct arc to the conversion of St. 

[00:04:10] Paul that that's not a leap at all, is it? 

[00:04:12] John: Oh, not at all. Not at all. And even if you. Follow Luke's gorgeous developing trajectory Now we've, we've moved out of Jerusalem. We have moved into the regions beyond Samaria. We've seen an Ethiopian come to Christ and all of that represented, and then we see Philip. At the end of chapter eight, pushing his way up to Caesarea and, and carrying on this idea of expansion. 

[00:04:40] And then Luke introduces us to this, this amazing controversial figure of Saul. . And, and of course from this moment on, we're going to see a, an accelerated trajectory towards the gentile world, ironically. And who's leading the charge, but a absolutely hardcore Lockton loaded lover of Yahweh who is passionate for the TaNaK and, and, and a carrier of that zeal to the world. 

[00:05:13] And and, and God is about to take someone with all of those gifts and abilities and passions and make him a dynamic. Catalyst towards the gentile world. So, so the, he's not alone. He's not the only person that does this. Of course there were, he, he is representative. Of probably thousands of believers who will track across the earth. 

[00:05:36] But of course, Paul is absolutely pivotal in this conversation, both at as a personal experiential level. He embodies this shift and this dynamic impact encounter with Jesus on the way. I love, we're bro, he's on his way and he encounters the Jesus of the way. 

[00:05:57] David: Yeah, 
 

[00:05:57] John: and it's just, and, and it transforms his direction. 

[00:06:00] And, and Paul, of course, he ultimately will make a, an, an incalculable an incalculable contribution to the, what we now call the New Testament. And so we are deeply grateful for this moment of conversion because of the universal impact of this man's life. 

[00:06:17] David: So what we're gonna do then is read Acts chapter nine and the, the sort of whole story it's gonna take us. And I don't even know that this is necessary to say. Listeners, if you're with us still, then you know that this is probably gonna take us more than one episode. . Do we even need to add that, that caveat anymore 

[00:06:38] It's like, but but before we do that, perhaps in a break from normal tradition, Two texts. I, I was going to read for us this collect as a, as a sort of prayer. This is from the Book of Common Prayer for the day of the conversion of St. Paul. And both John and I were struck by just the beautiful words of this little prayer collect. 

[00:06:57] And and it just simply says this, almighty God, you have caused the light of the world to shine throughout the world. Let me read that again. John . It says this, almighty God, you have caused the light of the gospel to shine throughout the world through the preaching of your servant Paul Grant, that we who remember his conversion may follow him in bearing witness to your truth through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

[00:07:26] Ah amen. Amen, 

[00:07:28] John: man. Oh man. So the text says this beautiful, beautiful words. Following on from that gorgeous prayer, it says, meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if you find any there, who belonged to the way, whether men or women, he may take them as prisoners to jeru. 

[00:08:01] As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? Who are you? Lord? Saul asked, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. He replied, now, get up and go into the city and you will be told what you must. 

[00:08:28] The man traveling with Saul stood their speechless. They heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes, he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus for three days. He was blind and did not eat or drink anything. In Damascus, there was a disciple named Anais. 

[00:08:52] The Lord called to him in a vision Anai. Yes, Lord. He answered. The Lord told him, go to the house of Judas on straight street and ask for a man from Tarus named Saul. For he is praying in a vision, he has seen a man named an Anais come and place his hands on him to restore his sight, Lord. And Anais answered. 

[00:09:15] I've heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jeru. And he has come here with authority from the chief priest to arrest all who call on your name. But the Lord said to Anais, go, this man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings, and to the people of Israel. 

[00:09:39] I will show him how much he must suffer for my name. Then Anais went to the house and entered it, placing his hands on Saul. He said, brother. The Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here, has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately something like skills fell from Saul's eyes and he could see again. 

[00:10:09] He got up and was baptized and after taking some. He regained his strength. Come on, 

[00:10:21] David: What, what a story I I, every time I hear this story, John, I see different resonancies in it and, and our, our listener might want to note that this is just the first time that you're going to hear this story and acts. So this story, it comes back, doesn't it? 

[00:10:45] John: It does, it does. In fact, it's the first of, first of three. So you get this very sort of, personal account. It's almost like we're, we're looking in. And then in X 22 we have what feels like a defense from Paul in the temple area, speaking very much to a, a Jewish, almost entirely to a Jewish audience. 

[00:11:06] And you get some lovely extra little nuance and detail dropped in there from Paul, which is be. And then the third time we get the testimony is Acts 26 in front of Agrippa, Ken Agrippa. And he makes a defense. And again, lovely little additions and changes in there. Not in terms of the story, but just little additional pieces of information. 

[00:11:30] That were, that are included. So the three versions together really are brilliant and, and again, I would just say to our listeners, don't worry about what seemed to be slight changes in each story. Remember, these are live events. So X nine is this sort of broad record, and in 22 and 26, he, it's Paul on his feet. 

[00:11:49] He's literally sharing a story and there's gonna be elements of the story that at one level he's going to include to a certain audience and. And, and other bits of information she's gonna leave out to another audience. So, but when you patch them together, there's something quite gorgeous. And the fact that he's the only person in the book of X who has his conversion story told three times means it must be a pretty important event. 

[00:12:12] David: Well, so you kind of, again, it's, you're getting that, that hint from Luke that here's a story I need you to pay attention to, because I'm gonna take up the time. I always think it's worth remembering. It was very hard to write in those days. So if you, in one book, you tell a story three times, you, you really are, you really are trying to tell people to pay attention to it. 

[00:12:32] I, I was struck as you were reading it this time, John, as well. The story is multiple genres of story, like those final few lines and, and we'll get to them in, in, in another episode, but, The final few lines remind me of some of the, the healing miracles of Jesus. When Jesus goes to visit Peter's house and he heals Peter's mother-in-law, and then she gets up and and starts making them some food. 

[00:12:57] Little side note, I I loved the the chosen take on that miracle where, where Peter's mother-in-law jumps up and realize he's Jesus is in the house, so has to, has to serve him some dinner. But you know that, that. Luke seems to drop almost into that gospel story miracle genre at the end there. 

[00:13:17] So it's like a conversion. It begins as a persecution story, becomes a conversion story, ends as a healing miracle. And, and of course there's, there's this resonance that maybe the whole story is a healing miracle, that, that God is, is healing that which is trying to destroy the church, but definitely healing it in a way beyond our wildest imagination. 

[00:13:38] John: Yeah. Gorgeous. And I, I really do, I I would absolutely align with that. And I, I don't know if, unless I tried in the, in the reading of the text that just give the little emphasis that when, that, when Paul. Got to Damascus for three days. He, he didn't eat. Or, and, and you sort of say, well, why, why three days? 

[00:13:58] And you get that lovely little, is this literally, is this an insight into a death and resurrection moment? We're getting, we're getting the death of one person and the resurrection of another. . And I just love that and I, again, sometimes we say I wouldn't build your house on that, but it's, it's not, it's definitely worth keeping on the table. 

[00:14:17] It feels to me. That's a lovely, we nudge from Dr. Luke that you've got a three day idea there in the midst of Paul's personal crisis that he's seeking after Jesus. But I love the idea that, At the end of those three days, he gets baptized. And again, you've got another gorgeous resurrection motif there in that moment. 

[00:14:37] So I think there's a lot going on. It's just at one level, it's a very simple, easy to understand story. And another level, oh my. Goodness gracious me. There's lots of things popping around here, which is is stunning. And of course I think it needs to be. I think if, if we're given the credit to Luke that we've, we've tried to give, I think Luke is really flashing lots of lights here and he is going, okay, this is a moment and I want you to pay attention to this moment. 

[00:15:06] This is obviously every. Is spectacular. Anyone who comes to Jesus anywhere and in any way, but, but Luke is holding this moment up as a particularly dynamically significant moment through the conversion of this man. So it's just beautiful stuff. 

[00:15:22] David: Well, what's interesting is the the hints are, are kind of multi-layered as well. So even I, I remember years ago being sat in a Dead Sea Scrolls class while I was doing my doctoral research and realizing, In the first century context that Paul's in, some years after the Deads Sea Scrolls, this whole Damascus itself is not like, like I remember my professor saying when, cuz I immediately jumped in as the New Testament guy in the Deads Sea Scrolls class. 

[00:15:58] I'm like, wait, I need to ask a question about that. But, W I think it's quite possible that the early readers, when they hear that Paul's going to Damascus, the leaders that are hearing this story the first time Will, will, because Damascus was seen as a place where, you know, well it, it was seen almost as a place of revelation, but that one of the significant Dead Sea scrolls at. 

[00:16:20] Texts that, that, that's known now as the Damascus document, talks a lot about the condemnation of the wicked and how God will, how God will deal with the wicked. And so, see, he, my professor often worried, wondered, not worried. He often wondered if perhaps the, the, the early reader. Would be braced in the story. 

[00:16:42] The moment they see that the story's now heading to Damascus and there's almost this question of, are the wicked, for, for Saul, he the wicked are in Damascus, some off there to get rid of them and try and live out some of the prophetic texts by doing that. But in the ironies that it, Saul himself who has the revelation of. 

[00:17:03] on the way to do this. So it, it's possible that there are even residencies in this text that we won't pick up on of, of that, that the early readers would've would've saw, oh, Lucas, by even making reference to, you're talking about three days, the fact that he wants you to know he's going to Damascus, and then he goes, there's, there's a lot going on in this story at the sort of pinnacle moment of this part of the book. 

[00:17:28] John: Yeah, absolutely. And, and if, if that idea of Damascus is resident in someone like Saul, then again and, and we'll probably lean a bit harder into this. Type of conversation later, but it does show you then the gorgeous, intimate, providential action of Jesus that Jesus is actually using. I mean, Jesus could have come to Saul at any moment. 

[00:17:56] Why this moment? Why here, why going there? So, is if, if Saul sees himself the importance of this idea is it, is it Jesus actually picking up that idea and doing something for Saul that is so unique that. Most of us wouldn't miss. That's even a thing going on. And, and of course for me, a lovely little, and it's the, again, we have to be careful here but this lovely sort of little idea that actually he's, when he's near Damascus, so potentially he's already crossed the. 

[00:18:33] Potentially he can see Damascus and the man who is in its is heart of hearts. Uh uh, a Hebrew of the Hebrews is about to meet Jesus. And be sent to the gentile world. And, and ironically, and we can't be accurate on this, it happens in Gentile territory. It happens perhaps as he is near a gentile city. 

[00:18:58] So, so there i, I, you're going, my goodness, all , all of this. I mean, there's some, it's just like at one level it's just like literal stuff and another level. . Wow. So much of this is actually speaking prophetically and connecting prophetically. And there is, if our listeners will just slow down again, we, we, we wanna be careful not to read something in which isn't there. 

[00:19:22] But there's a lot of like little popping moments here, which are bigger than just the telling of the story. And I think some of those little. Ideas around Damascus and the LO location of this Gentile city is, is really quite interesting. 

[00:19:38] David: and so we have Well, let's jump into the text a little tiny bit. And, and, we both noticed that we, we start this story, it's Acts chapter nine, but there's a real contrast to what has just gone before. I mean, we've just come from this remarkable story of the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip, and, and then you get, I mean, I think the, the new international version represents this quite well. 

[00:20:02] This mean. Like, here's a story that's going on while we got caught up in the joy and beauty of that story about the Ethiopian Munich, like not everything's going well everywhere else. So you know, we thought, oh wow. Is this the marker? The Holy Spirit has broken out of our boundaries and, and is going to work. 

[00:20:20] Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out mergers threats against the Lord's disciples. It's like, We, we kind of crashed back down to Earth with a, with a a bit of a bang, didn't we? 

[00:20:33] John: we did. We did. And, and also I, I think again, Luke is doing something gorgeously, deliberate, and brilliant here cuz when we're first introduced to Saul, it's in the execution and martyrdom of Stephen. And you get this hugely. Missional moment where the word of God is at the center. Stephen is expounding to knock expertly, and then you get this explosion against him, and Sauls introduced this, this man that we will come to know who's highly regarded. 

[00:21:02] Trained by Gaal expert in the law and you get this introduction and the spreading of this community. Then, then Phillip is introduced to us, and of course, my goodness, Phillips all over the place, Samaria down to, to the border, to, to meet the Ethiopian Munich, the first African convert on the record. 

[00:21:19] And then, and then it sort of X chapter eight finishes. Phillip, however, appeared at Azores and traveled about preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea. So you get chapter eight, finishing with a zealous missionary evangelist, promoting and propagating Jesus in the gospel. And then in chapter nine, verse one, you're introduced to Aze. 

[00:21:43] Missionary evangelist who is propagating the words of the Torah and, and Yahweh. Y you, you've got two zealous missional missionary exponents of their belief system, literally stuck side by side by, by Luke. One finishing at the end of chapter eight. and the other beginning at chapter nine, and again, I think, we'll, we lent into this last time, David, but, but the mileage covered here is huge. 

[00:22:11] I think from, from Gaza up to Caesarea, again, depending which route you go, you, you're looking at about 120 miles. So, So Phillip has done like the 50 miles from Samaria to Jerusalem, and then another 70 or so down to Gaza just to get to the Ethiopian unique. Now he's, he's rocking about 120 miles up to Caesarea and there is an amazing. 

[00:22:34] Mileage sort of correlation with Paul from, because from Jerusalem to Damascus, we're looking at about 135 miles. So, so not only have you got two like zealous men almost put side by side and of chapter eight begin to chapter nine, but they're both like putting serious miles on the board for their cause. and, and I just, I can't sort of, think that, that, that, that that's an accident. I think Dr. Luke is putting those two personalities together because he's contrasting their trajectory, but he's, he's actually. I think showing there's a connection in Zeal here. There's a connection and passion here. There's a connection in belief in their cause, and both men are prepared to put serious leather on the ground in order to make their cause happen. 

[00:23:28] It's, it's, you think that's too much or, or you think that that's there? 

[00:23:32] David: Well, I, I think one of the challenges of reading scripture slowly and deeply is that it, what it does for you is . The more you peel back the layers, the more you become convinced there's more layers to peel back, and, and so I'm probably not. Not your best person to kind of reel you in at that point. 

[00:23:54] because, because I, I think. It, it becomes harder and harder not to see the, the writers of these texts as being very intentional with nuances and frames. And, I mean, look at, look at Luke's introduction to chapter nine. Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. 

[00:24:17] Right? And so, This mp right, is the Greek word he uses, which comes from, which is, is, is essentially to breathe out puma, right breath. So of all the metaphors that Paul, that that could be used of Paul and his murderous approach to the disciples, Luke decides to use one involving breath and, and a derivative of the word. 

[00:24:45] Brad, this whole story has been about the spread of God's pneuma, God's breath, the Holy Spirit. Like meanwhile, Paul was still trying to kill lots of people who were following. Jesus is a perfectly acceptable Greek sentence for Luke to write. Paul was on a. Trip of persecution against the church. 

[00:25:02] That's how he's described it. He could come in and say the great persecution continued as, as Saul was seeking legal assistance in this process. But he chooses to frame it as Saul was breathing out. Paul, Saul Wass. Spiriting out murderous threats against the followers of Jesus. And, and it's like, I mean, Luke is a great Hollywood writer. 

[00:25:26] Like you can see the billboard, which spirit will overcome, right? , the, the, the murderous spirit is going to come face-to-face with the spirit of Jesus. And let's see how that goes. like, so, so I'm just gonna weigh in to say that, that if, if Luke can. Be that nuanced with his language to draw, this sort of word together. 

[00:25:52] I, I, I find it very hard to not think he can also be nuanced with this sense of the, the spread of the gospel being tracked around, combined with the spread of the persecution being tracked around, like he is setting up a collision course here, and it's going to be glorious. When it clashes together blinding light, even 

[00:26:14] John: I think it's a beautiful a beautiful insight David and and, and one which really adds to this sort of drama of this moment. The first introduction to Saul was fairly dramatic, but he was a sort of a, like, stand at the sidelines type character. He's, he's, he's not the mean, but he's there, he's introduced in a sort of a menacing type way here. 

[00:26:36] He's being pushed front and center. And I love the way you have positioned the breathing out of Saul and the breathing out of the spirit. And these, these, now, these two, these two missions are about to come head to head. These, these two breaths are about to meet on a road, and we're about to see which one actually comes out on top. 

[00:26:59] And I, I, I love that. I, I don't think that's stretching too far. in the way that Saul has been introduced via Steven and then. Beautiful, magnificent interlude of Philip, and then we're back to Saul. I think all of this is about, Jesus is about to get ahold of a man who is passionate, zealous, relentless, determined, brilliant. 

[00:27:24] And absolutely convinced that what he is doing to these believers of the way, these followers, of the way that what he's doing is, is the will of God. So, so Paul is sing or Saul is single minded and, and all that it, it's like as he's introduced to us in nine one, the energy of that is all like, I mean, you feel like we're on a supercharged moment here. 

[00:27:49] In, in this particular text and of. He, he, he does become such a influential and dominant and, and positive. I, I know some, not everyone loves Paul, but, but he becomes a, a, an incredibly influential figure in the New Testament Church and it's very important, I think for. Any serious reader of the New Testament to think about Saul, his life, who he was, the core drivers of his world? 

[00:28:18] Not, not just come Adam sort of through a single lens or even idea story. 

[00:28:24] David: Yes. so couple of things actually as well that probably are worth saying at this point. So the Saul Paul thing know, we're gonna see Saul become Paul at some point, and you might have encountered people over time going, oh, Paul, Saul changes his name because he becomes a Christian and, and now he has a new. 

[00:28:43] Generally speaking, what a probably more accurate way to look at this is that Saul, being from Tarsus, some scholars seem to think that the, the evidence is most likely, cuz we don't know a ton about Paul's background life, but we do know he has Roman citizenship, but he's also Jewish. And, and a lot of scholars seem to think that it's possible that that Saul, either his father was involved in certain projects in Tarsus, that, that that were honored by the Romans with citizenship or maybe even this, some slavery in his family in the background. 

[00:29:21] And if they've served a family really well, there'll be granted freedom and citizenship there. But because he's from Tarsis, we know that Saul would've had three names. He would've had a, a Hebrew name, a, a Greek name, and probably a family name that would've been taken if he was from a, a slave, freeing family. 

[00:29:38] It would be taken from them, it could be elsewhere. We don't know what that is, but the name Shaul, the, this Hebrew name. and then This Greek name would've been the name he would've used depending on what context he was in. In English, they sound like he's just changed one letter of hiss name, but it's, it's it Shaul. 

[00:29:59] When you're amongst Hebrew speakers and PaaS, when you're amongst Greek speakers and that's how the double names worked. Then you see that even to this day, you'll find people that come from certain countries will often. Adopt a different name when they're in different countries for, for a variety of, of of reasons. 

[00:30:16] And, and Saul becomes known to us as Paul if, as we as we'll see when we get there. But I just thought, let's just roll this out early when he starts his mission to the Greek speaking world and and, and Luke introduces him at that point and was always also known. Paul. And so it's not actually a big conversion name change. 

[00:30:34] It's actually he's adapting to his location. Just to be sh it might interest people if we go a little tiny bit deeper. The Greek language doesn't have a soft s so the sh sound of is actually impossible to say in Greek. 

[00:30:50] John: Hmm. 
 

[00:30:51] David: Actually, it's very helpful for Saul, this great missionary who's gonna change the world of the Gentiles to not have a name that Gentiles can't say 

[00:31:00] John: Yes. Love that. 

[00:31:02] David: but, but you used a word John, which I assume was intentional which was, which was the word zealous, and I, I, I thought it was interesting that that was the word you kept coming back to describe Saul. And I think it's interesting for a few things because I, I want to say like I deeply recognize that Paul is not always well liked within the church and. 

[00:31:28] I, I, I, I can't do anything about that for everybody other than to simply say, l. Let Paul speak in his own words. Paul has been abused by the church to make points very often. I would, I would think if you just read Paul, that's not what he's trying to say. So like you and I have talked about this elsewhere, it'll come out as we go through other biblical texts. 

[00:31:52] But the classic example is I meet people all the time who say Paul is anti-women. Right? and, and I, and I always. if we make him anti-woman, he is. But if you read his texts, he quite evidently is not, and I don't say that to, talk badly to anyone who feels that, particularly to women who feel like Paul has been presented as anti-women. 

[00:32:14] I confess he has been presented in that way. So when I meet people that say, know, I don't like Paul cause he doesn't like women. I'm like, I know exactly where you're coming for because I've heard those sermons myself, but I. Gently ask our listeners to say, go back and let Paul speak for himself and, and see where you go. 

[00:32:33] From, from there. A and that's why I was, I was just attracted to that word, zealous he used, because when, when. Paul talks about his own life prior to meeting Jesus. That's exactly the word that he uses to describe himself. He talks about, in Romans 10, he talks about the Psic way as having a zeal for God. 

[00:32:56] In in Philippians three, Paul says that when he is describing his own life, he says in terms of zeal, I was a persecutor of the church. And then like the, in his own words, Galatians one. And 14, you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how thoroughly I ravaged the Church of God and tried to destroy it. 

[00:33:17] I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age, being exceedingly zealous for the traditions. So Paul's own description of his life is, Zealous, but that word in, in and of itself actually helps us then locate sort of where Paul falls within the Judaism of his day. And, and I wonder, like, do you think that's something worth us chatting about for a little moment? 

[00:33:45] John: Oh, it absolutely is. I, I, I think to try and understand the person he was and the world that he lived in and the. The things that framed him. I mean, why is he doing what he's doing on the road to Damascus? Like, you know what, well, why, why isn't every good Jewish person, like on, on the back of a, a, a horse or a, or a donkey, like trying to find disciples of the way? 

[00:34:12] Why him? What, what's going on in him that makes him behave like this? And, and actually I, I, I, I've, I've often said this is not. Biblical, but I think there's a little line of helpfulness in it. We, we see the world as we are not as it is. There's something inside Saul that is causing him to see his world a certain way and therefore causing him to act a certain way. 

[00:34:38] And understanding of that will help so much in terms of not only what he does, but why certain things happen to him, even why Jesus approaches him this. On, on a, on a Damascus road conversion experience. I think all of that comes into play more sharply when we get a sense of his, his location where he is located as a human and as a Jewish human and as a very zealous Jewish human in the context of that. 

[00:35:07] So I, it's definitely worth the conversation, especially with where we're going. 

[00:35:11] David: I would say to listeners, there's a little Tom Wright book out there that or N.T. Wright as he's sometimes known as well, called what St. Paul really said. And now Tom Wright has written a lot of books on Paul and I'm, I, I, I like the work that he does, but this book, which is one of his older books, and actually , I was looking at it just just in preparation for this recording. 

[00:35:34] And I noticed that he signed off on the book in his preface, and it was, The preface was written on the Feast of the Conversion of St. Paul in, in 1997. So I, I also, I, I geeked out about that a little bit because I laughed, because I thought he's clearly having the same thought that we were having today. 

[00:35:51] But it, so he's got newer books on Paul, so this one's your 1997, but I actually think it's, it's one of his best for describing this particular issue. In, in both its brevity, cuz Tom can write really big books, but also it's. It's depth. So for the listener that wants to push a little bit more in trying to understand, Paul, this little book, what St. 

[00:36:13] Paul really said, I think would be I say little, it's, it's, it's a 180 pages sort of thing. But he points out in that that, that this word zeal is actually a bit of a giveaway for us. And, and, and and briefly, and you have heard us talk about this on the podcast before, but, but briefly, Juda. Amongst Pharisaic Judaism at the time of Paul is sort of breaking broadly into two camps, and there's the Pharisees who follow Halel and the Pharisees who follow Shama Halel leans towards the more kind of liberal take on things. 

[00:36:49] Let's just let. Let God be God and let people be people and God will work it all out. And when I say, liberal verses the slightly more intense Chaite, Pharisees who are like, no, it's our job to work all out on God's behalf. Broad generalizations here. And when we talk about liberal and perhaps conservatives, it's worth noting that we're talking about the liberals and the conservatives. 

[00:37:11] Within the Pharisees who are a very conservative, they are absolutely committed to the law and absolutely committed to God. And so eventually over the history of, of Psic Judaism and what becomes rabbinic Judaism, the Hill light position wins, right? You see that in the mission now, that, that position of, of we follow the law, we take it very, very seriously, but we also let God's grace work and move in our situation. 

[00:37:38] Interestingly, All of the kind of theological questions that Jesus has asked in the gospels are are forms of the Hillel Shami sort of debate. And Jesus, with the exception of one time, Jesus always leans towards the Hillel side of. Things. Rabbi Gael, we saw him earlier in act. He's a famous halal out rabbi, and you see exactly the sort of attitude we're talking about here. 

[00:38:02] Wait a minute here guys. We don't wanna wade in and start killing all these Christians because what if God's involved in this? So let's, let's stick to what we know of the law. Let me remind us of what we know of history and let's see what God works out. But then you get your mites who are. And they're like, no, we are going to, we're going to do the things to make the things happen. 

[00:38:22] And, and what you see is one of the great fears of, of, of the, the mite position is what if. The day of the Lord comes this day that we're hoping about where God will come back and put everything right. What if that happens? And God can't tell the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles because the Jews are not properly observing the law. 

[00:38:45] And this which you can understand respectfully is a, is a. is a fear, right? We believe God's come to sort things out and the last thing we want is for God to come back and us look like the people that we think he's here to sort out. So what you see is this developing shamaya idea that we see here in Saul is when a group of Jewish people appear to be divergent from the way that we want the law to be read. 

[00:39:09] This is a big threat to us because if people start to follow this, we become indistinguishable as the people of God in our. So, I mean, that's like a hundred miles an hour, but I, I'm hoping that that kind of helps frame for the listener what's maybe going on in Saul's head, which is like, I gotta do what God wants me to do. 

[00:39:29] I'm absolutely convinced in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I'm absolutely convinced in the truth of scripture, and I see a group of people who are, in my opinion, Breaking from scripture. God is coming back in the future and he's gonna sort things out. He's going to vindicate his people and we need to make sure that we're ready for that. 

[00:39:50] And this new sect called the followers of the way, they're backing us away from the direction we should be going. I. , and I think that makes sense actually of, of why Saul's behaving like he's behaving. I, I dunno, does, does it make sense? 

[00:40:07] John: I think it makes total sense. I think it's very, very helpful. E e everyone has context to their journey. Saul is no exception and there is something really shaping him. And it's interesting, of course. And we, we, we, we read it in our little passage that his intent in going to Damascus was to bring back. People that bring them back to Jerusalem. So again, it, it points to the idea of not just going after the followers of the way, but those who have strayed from the way. So in Saul's eyes, these believers have strayed from what is pure and true. And of course he's now going up to Damascus not to kill and persecute people in Damascus per se, but he's got the letters. 

[00:40:53] He's gonna, he's gonna go to these communities, many of them still wrapped around by a Jewish identity, and he's gonna bring them back and he's going to, he's gonna get them to recant or sort them out or re indoctrinate them or do something with them. But the whole idea of his going to Damascus is to bring. 

[00:41:13] And I think that's a really, really important idea for us. This is not just a nasty wicked evil man who's just intent in destroying people. This is a man on a zealous desire to bring back those who have strayed and those who have, are missing God's best for their life. He's not just seeking to destroy the. Per se, but recover the lost. And I think that's definitely part of his, part of his conversation. I, I, I mean, I love, I love how he describes himself. You've already alluded to it in Philippines in regard to the law. He says a Pharisee as persecuting the church, the Ecclesia, and as for righteousness, based on the law fault. So, so you've got a real insight into his thinking. He sees himself as a Hebrew of Hebrews, of course, interesting illusion to the tribe of Benjamin. And of course, the first king of Israel, Shaul was also a Benjamin, so you get this lovely little illusion to that going on there, which is beautiful. But his pedigree is, is out there for all the sea circumcised on the eighth day. 

[00:42:23] Of the people of Israel tribe, Benjamin Hebrew of Hebrews Pharisee. Zeal, faultless. I mean, this is a, this is a serious man, and he's not just going off on some sort of half cock mission. This is someone who absolutely believes he has the heart of God and he wants to both recover the lost. People but also hopefully extinguish this, this irritable cult that is developing, it seems within a judaistic context. 

[00:42:54] David: Well, and there's this, there's a tension for him. And I love that you pointed out his, his standing on the lock, his notice what Luke tells us, he goes and asks for letters. So he's not rogue , he's not, he, he, he's got, he's gone and got permission to come and a arrest all of these people. 

[00:43:11] But there's a double tension for, for the Pharisee and for especially for a, for a Shami. Pharisee at this point. And, and I, and I hope that people hear this, this i, this term, Pharisee. Has been used often in a very derogatory term which actually makes it harder for us to read the Bible. The Pharisees, the Pharisees are the people who are absolutely committed to loving God. 

[00:43:35] They're not, they're not just simply a dogmatic group of bad people. They're absolutely committed to loving God and they want other people to find the God of grace that they've encountered in, in the, the Bible, in the Torah, and, and the prophets. And the idea that we have this idea. , it was just this religion of works that they were just dotting eyes and crossing ts. 

[00:43:56] But if you think about what we said about Saul, the, the, the belief is that God has called us to be His light to the world. And if God returns to put the world right, and we're not doing a very good job of that, that doesn't seem good. That doesn't seem like, it doesn't seem like we've responded gratefully to his grace. 

[00:44:13] It sounds like we've just ignored it completely. But there's also a slight complexity in the belief that the, the Pharisees also believe that one of the things that will hasten the return of God to put the world right, is if we can get as many of us who are the people of the light to gather together and follow God's ways. 

[00:44:35] And this will tell God that we are ready and, and so there's a double handedness of. I, I, I need to get rid of this. I need to stamp out this new cult that seems to be saying things about the Messiah, both because I don't want that to move us to be less recognizable as Israelites, but also . I it, it's slowing down the return of God. 

[00:44:57] If we are all a mess, God's not gonna want to come back. So, so Saul is doing this sort of work based on singular. and he, this is Paul in his own words here in First Corinthians, singularly on his misunderstanding of Jesus, right. That and the key thing for me is that Saul doesn't transition from, it's not a conversion from Judaism to Christianity. 

[00:45:25] That happens in here that we're gonna look at in Acts chapter nine, rather, by the time he's done this chapter and is confessing Jesus' Lord, he still fully believes in the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. The difference is he now also believes that Jesus. Is God's Messiah. He was always hoping for a Messiah. 

[00:45:47] He was always believing that was gonna happen. What's blowing, what we'll find has blown Paul away is that he thought this was all happening at the end of time, and he's just bumped into the resurrected Messiah, in the middle of the road to Damascus. And Saul has realized not that he was wrong with his beliefs. 

[00:46:07] Past. He was wrong in his understanding of how God was working and the timescale God was working on. But the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has always had his heart for all peoples. And Saul now realizes that through Christ, the way in which God is gonna reach those peoples is different. A and I just hope that our listeners hear that, that we're not talking about a man. 

[00:46:31] From one religion to another. We're talking about a man seeing the fulfillment of God that he had always hoped for, just in a surprising way. 

[00:46:40] John: Absolutely. It's beautiful, David, and, and just, I I couldn't, I was just looking it up as you were speaking. I couldn't help but be drawn back to something you alluded to earlier on in Galatians one where you talked about his extreme. He was extremely zealous for the traditions of our fathers, but he was on the say this, it was the next week bet that just popped up. 

[00:46:58] He says, but when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by his grace, Was pleased to reveal his son in me so that I may preach him among the Gentiles. And I think that is, that is absolutely, Paul sees the fact that being born into a covenanted, people with Yahweh is a, is an act of immense grace. 

[00:47:27] But he odds to this idea that. When he was pleased to reveal his son in me and that absolutely I think in Paul's scriptural words just really sums up. That beautiful way that you have presented that there, that this wasn't just a man converting from Judaism to Christianity, but this is a man seeing Jesus as Messiah and that Jesus being revealed to him and now formed in him. 

[00:47:58] And I think if we can. Grab that at the beginning of our journey with Saul and Paul, then I think it helps us really understand why he is zealous about the things he's zealous about.