Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com 

[00:00:00] David: well, John, we left. Steven looking like the face of an angel is part of his trial. And we're now gonna jump into a, a pretty big part of acts, aren't we? 

[00:01:04] John: Indeed, indeed. We're, we're about to hit the longest discourse in the book of Acts. We've, we've hit, we've hit a few long sermons already relatively speaking in the book of Acts, but this is, this stands out not only up to this point, but I think if we look forward, this is the longest piece of discourse that we've got in terms of Steven's amazing apologetic sermon. And it's a bit of a tipping point moment. It's a huge moment in the journey of the church, and it, it creates an incredible shift as a result of what happens through this sermon. So it, it's definitely worthy of our attention as we consider this, that Stephen didn't just have the face of an angel as it. 

[00:01:47] Or, or had the glory of God on him like an angel, the face of an angel, but clearly has a serious mind and also a heart tuned into the scriptures because the sermon we're about to read is pretty outstanding as an apologetic. 

[00:02:01] David: And no one will be surprised to learn that given this sermon is 53 verses long, we're probably gonna take a couple of episodes to work our way through this 

[00:02:11] John: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's worthy of it. It has to be said. I, I think this is really, really worthy of our consideration. And we zero in on the words of Peter. We of course track the words of Paul in the book of Acts, but Stephen, sermon, Stephen Burns brightly, burns quickly, and then disappear. 

[00:02:31] Stephen Sermon has a lasting impact on the church, and, and, and it could be argued, echoes the words of Jesus from the gospels very powerfully and certainly is programmatic for the church in many ways in terms of its contextualization in a Jewish world with a gentile trajectory. So it's a very, very important conversation. 

[00:02:54] David: So what we're gonna do then over the next couple of episodes is explore this sermon. But what we figured might be helpful is for this first, Dive into the sermon is John and i's best attempt at a sort of 40,000 foot overview. So, so, so this episode is gonna be, we're gonna read the sermon and we're gonna kind of try and talk about it at a holistic level. 

[00:03:18] Before we sort of dive into some of the points with a little bit more a little bit more detail over the next. Episodes. So we're gonna begin by reading it. John and I will share this because it, it takes a couple of people to get through this this sermon in one in one go. So, so sit back and relax. 

[00:03:35] Enjoy listening to this sermon. And I, I'm actually excited about this, John, because we always say this, but we have a tendency to just reverses of the Bible. . And actually that's always a little bit of a shame, especially when the hall of chapter seven is essentially a sermon that should be listened to in one goal. 

[00:03:55] John: Absolutely, totally agree. It's it's well worthy of our attention and, and I think even our listeners might hear and feel some stuff in hearing the whole sermon read. It's quite, quite striking. We have a, we have a gorgeous Monday night. Sort of walking through the Bible group that meets in our home every couple of weeks and we have dinner together. 

[00:04:16] And then we reflect on the scriptures and we've been doing some work on the creation story, the Genesis text, and in one of the evenings we got the group to simply close their eyes and listen. To the rhythm of ex Genesis chapter one from verse one all the way through to verse chapter two, verse four. 

[00:04:34] And it was amazing. We then asked people to reflect back on what did you hear? And some of these people were seizing Christians being followers of Jesus a million years or so, and they heard. Things that they hadn't seen with their eyes before. So I think we do listen differently with our ears than we listen with our eyes. 

[00:04:54] And and hopefully wherever you are listening to this, this sermon in its totality will be a blessing to you as we read it together. 

[00:05:01] David: Absolutely John. I, I love I love this sort of space that we can take in our lives sometimes and the privilege perhaps just to pause and read a piece of scripture together and so, So that's what we're gonna do. The, the, the chapter begins I'm gonna take the first section, which is one verse where , the, the, it says this. 

[00:05:22] Then the high priest asked Stephen, are these charges true? And what you'll find, Is you remember, this is following on from the, from the very last last episode we did. So these four words, are these charges true? Lead to a 52 verse sermon. And and so I wonder if the high priest regretted asking those four words but the question definitely didn't give any hints of of, of what was about to come. So John and I are gonna break this up between us and John, why don't you take us away? With Steven's response to the question put to him. 

[00:05:57] John: to this. He replied. Brothers and fathers listened to me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran. Leave your country and your people. God said, and go to the land. I will show you. So he left the land of the calians and settled in Harran. 

[00:06:21] After the death of his father, God sent him to this land where you are now living. He gave him no inheritance here, not even enough ground to set his foot. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land. Even though at that time Abraham had no child, God spoke to him. In this way, 400 years, your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated, but I will punish the nation. 

[00:06:56] They serve slaves, God said, and afterward they will come out of that. And worship me in this place. Then he gave Abraham the continent of circumcision, and Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him eight days after his birth. Later, Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the 12 patriarchs. 

[00:07:22] David: Because the patriarchs were jealous of Joseph. They sold him as a slave into Egypt, but God was with him and rescued him from all his troubles. He gave Joseph wisdom and enabled him to gain the goodwill of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt. So Pharaoh made him ruler over Egypt and all his palace. Then a famine struck all Egypt and Canaan bringing great suffering, and our ancestors could not find food. 

[00:07:52] When Jacob heard that there was grain in Egypt, he sent our forefathers on their first visit. On their second visit, Joseph told his brothers who he was, and Pharaoh learned about Joseph's family. After this, Joseph sent for his father Jacob and the whole family, 75 in all. And then Jacob went down to Egypt where he and our ancestors died. 

[00:08:13] Their bodies were brought back to Shaham and placed in the tomb that Abraham had bought from the sons of Haymore at she, for a certain sum of. as the time drew near forgot to fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased then a new king to whom Joseph meant nothing came to power in Egypt. 

[00:08:35] He dealt treacherously with our people and oppressed our ancestors by forcing them to throw out their newborn babies so that they would die. 

[00:08:44] John: At that time, Moses was. And he was no ordinary child For three months. He was cared for by his family. When he was placed outside, Pharaoh's daughter took him and brought him up as her own son. Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and. When Moses was 40 years old, he decided to visit his own people, the Israelites. 

[00:09:14] He saw one of them being mistreated by an Egyptian, so he went to his defense and avenged him by killing the Egyptian. Moses thought that his own people would realize that God was using him to rescue them, but they did not. The next day, Moses came upon to Israelis who were fighting. He tried to reconcile them by saying, man, you are brothers. 

[00:09:36] Why do you want to hurt each? But the man who was mistreating the other pushed Moses aside and said, who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian yesterday? When Moses heard this, he fled to Midian where he settled as a foreigner and had two sons. 

[00:09:59] David: After 40 years had passed, the angel appeared to Moses's in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say, I am the Lord. He heard the Lord say, I am the God of your father's, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

[00:10:23] Moses' trembled with fear and did not dare to. Then the Lord said to him, take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy ground. I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard they're groaning and I have come down to set them free. Now come I will send you back to Egypt. 

[00:10:45] This is the same mosies they had rejected with the words who made you ruler and judge. He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt at the Red Sea and for 40 years in the wilderness. 

[00:11:07] This is the Mosies who told the Israelites, God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people. He was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our ancestors, and he received living words to pass on to us. 

[00:11:26] John: But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and then their hearts turned back to Egypt. They told Aaron, make us Gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who has led us out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him. That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. 

[00:11:49] They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made, but God turned away from them and give them over to the worship of. Moon and Stars disagrees with what was written in the book of the prophets. Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings? 40 years in the wilderness people of Israel, you have taken up the top orle of Moak and the star of your God rehan, the idols you made to worship. 

[00:12:21] Therefore, I will send you into exile Beyond Baby. Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen. After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them. When they took the land from the nation's, God drove out before them. 

[00:12:46] It remained in the land until the time of David who enjoyed God's favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of. But it was Solomon who built the house for him. However, the most high does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet said, heaven is my throne and the earth is my foot still. 

[00:13:10] What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord? Or where will my resting place be? My hand made all these. 

[00:13:21] David: You stiff necked people. Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors. You always resist the Holy Spirit. Was there ever a prophet, your ancestors did not persecute, they even killed those who predicted the coming of the righteous one, and now you have betrayed and murdered him. 

[00:13:45] You who have received the law that was given through angels, but have not obeyed. 

[00:13:54] John: Oh wow. Wow. 

[00:13:58] David: It starts like story time and does not end like that, does it? 

[00:14:03] John: No, no, there's no, there's no gentle landing point in that sermon. Is he? He just, he just hits it. Hits it. There is a, an amazing gear change right at the end, which I know where, when we come to reflect on the sermon in a bit more detail, we'll see. But he, he does not miss and hit the wall at the end. Does he? 

[00:14:21] He really does. He really moves in and makes it clear what. Is both witnessing, I think, from his audience and maybe even expecting from them. So it's a profound piece of work. 

[00:14:34] David: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and so what, like where do you start with a sermon like this, John? Like what? When we begin and, and look at it from a a 40,000 feet level, like Steven's doing a lot of work here. and, and at some level I think. There's some fascinating shaping of the church going on in this text as well. 

[00:15:01] Like the church and pastors, you and I are both in various contexts, have pastored, continue to pastor, and I'm always struck by how pastors get teased about their love of sermons, , and, and I when I've been teaching an accent in, in my community, I, I've occasionally pointed out, When you read acts, you realize this is where we got our love of sermons, 

[00:15:25] It's like the Christian response to. Things is to preach sermons. What's the, what's the answer? But very particular type of sermon that you see in acts that interests me that I think we get lost in sometimes. And let me say this, perhaps like this. I have heard a lot of sermons that are not sermons if this here in acts is the model of the sermon, right? 

[00:15:48] So, because this sermon does some particular things that I. A lot of stuff that I've heard in my life in church and you see on television and in podcasts is claiming to be a sermon because it's speaking in church, right? But is a sermon simply speaking in church or is a sermon a motive speaking that does what Stephen does here? 

[00:16:12] Does? Does that make sense As a question, , .  

[00:16:14] John: I, I think it really does. And it, it is really interesting that as you reflected on before we started our reading, that all of this starts with a question are these charges true? And I suppose in our, in our Western world, if, if somebody asked me, are these charges true? 

[00:16:31] My, my temptation would be to sort of just answer the question well, yes or no or, or get very specific very quickly. But of course what Steven does, and I think he, maybe he's learned this from Peter as well, cuz we've seen this pattern in Peter. That, that instead of being drawn directly into answering the question, Steven uses this as an opportunity to position the answer in a much more dynamic, wider context. 

[00:17:02] So it, it's not a, it's not a onew sermon, it's not a one question sermon. It's not a one issue sermon. Actually, Steven is deliberately. Pulling his audience back to a a, as we've said, a 40,000 feet or a panoramic view. 

[00:17:20] Of this conversation so that it doesn't become about, well, did you say the temple's gonna be destroyed or not? 

[00:17:27] Because that, that, that makes it a very, a very one issue sermon. But actually Steven understands if I could draw on directly into the answer of that question, then this sermon isn't gonna last more in 30 seconds. So, so he pulls back and, and introduce, A panoramic view of the story in which he contextualizes Jesus. 

[00:17:50] And, and I think that's what the early church is doing a lot in, in the context of using this glorious sweep of what we call the Old Testament, the TaNaK and positioning Jesus. Within that. And I think, I think Stephen does, does that brilliantly. 

[00:18:08] David: I, I, I wholeheartedly agree, and I think there's a couple of things that, that come to mind for me off, off the back of that one from someone a little closer to our time and um, And, and, and, and one from little further away. But I have this this, this quote here from Dietrich Bon Hoffer's book ethics. 

[00:18:27] And, and he says, he says this like slightly old language, but, but just listen to this with. This sermon we've just heard in mind, Bon Hoffer says, on the basis of holy scripture, the preaching office proclaims Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior of the world. There is no legitimate proclamation by the church. 

[00:18:49] That is not the proclamation of. and any kinda to summarize, he then goes on to say The world of the church is justified and authorized solely by the commission of Jesus. Therefore, any of its words that fail to take this authorization into account must be just empty. Chatter. Right. So fascinating thought that basically, as I interpret Bon Hoffer here, what he's saying is preaching in the church proclaims Jesus's lord. 

[00:19:20] And if it doesn't do that , then it's not preaching in the church. And when the church starts to talk about things that are not built around the authorization that Jesus' Lord, and we are here to talk about, that 

[00:19:33] the church descends just into empty chat. Now, I don't, to be clear, I don't think what Bon Hoffer's then saying is the church should only talk about Jesus and not talk about anything else. 

[00:19:45] But he's, I think what Bon Hoffer's saying is when the church even talks about other things, it's done through the lens of Jesus, with Jesus at the center. Pointing us to Jesus. So when the church talks about the terrible things that are going on in the world, how would Jesus have us talk about these things? 

[00:20:01] How can we still find Jesus in these things? How can we navigate as Jesus followers in these things? But I find. . I think you see Stephen doing exactly that in this sermon, even though he doesn't bring Jesus in until very late in this 

[00:20:18] John: Yep, 
 

[00:20:19] David: you realize when Jesus does appear in the sermon, oh, this has been going this direction for the whole time, 

[00:20:26] This is exactly where we're getting here. And then you remember from our previous episodes or from earlier when you've read Acts that Stephen hasn't lost in his mind. I'm answering a question here, and the question I'm answering is about the temple, and I'm going to point you to Jesus through all of that, and I, I don't know. 

[00:20:46] I mean, do you, do you resonate with that John? I, I, I kinda get excited by that. 

[00:20:50] John: Yeah, I, I, I think it's incredible that Stephen hardly mentions Jesus, and yet his audience are very clear that that's who he's talking about. 

[00:21:00] David: Yes. 
 

[00:21:00] John: So, so it does seem to, it does seem to suggest at a bigger picture if we are staying panoramic on this, that actually. This narrative about Jesus is well, is well sort of rooted in to the conversations that are going around the religious community. 

[00:21:23] So if, if what we've seen in the Book of Acts up to this point is anything to go by, then there's been engagement with us on Hedron on at least two occasions before this. The chatter will be out there. We know that priests are coming to the Lord. We've got miracles happening, shadows, healing people. 

[00:21:41] There's a whole bunch of stuff, this community meeting in the temple precinct. So, so I think David, there is a narrative out there about Jesus being the fulfillment of TaNaK. 

[00:21:52] That means that Stephen is able to talk about Jesus, whether it hardly mentioning Jesus. I think he's able, he's actually able to build a story and up to the, up to the punchline towards the end. 

[00:22:04] There's actually nothing He's saying that fundamentally. He could be picked apart on, he, he's, he's saying things that everyone in that crowd, that Sanhedrin crowd would a, a agree with, but he's leading them somewhere. He's absolutely taking them, and of course he's doing what we've seen Jesus do. So often, Jesus, in a masterful way, leads someone to a conclusion and then he says something like, so what do you. 

[00:22:36] How, how does that work out for you? It's that, it's that good Samaritan parable. So which one do you think is the neighbor to the man? It leaves the experts nowhere to go, but to the one conclusion that Steven is leading them to. That's the brilliance of this sermon. It looks like it's just a, it looks like it's just a rehearsal of an Old Testament narrative. 

[00:22:58] But Stephen is laying down the breadcrumbs and literally leading them to one conclusion around this. And I think that's the narrative that's out there in Jerusalem. Hence, he doesn't need to be even overly explicit about Jesus because I think Jesus is implicit in the story that this new way community are now telling and pe and, and Steven seems to be expertly picking up that narrative. 

[00:23:25] David: Absolutely. rhetorically, it's very, very clever to, to sort of find the shared ground, find the agreement. Nobody's gonna argue with 85% of the content of that sermon . They're going to, they're gonna be quite happy with the things that Stephen is saying. Yes, we know that is our story. 

[00:23:43] It's in the text. He's not. He's not even reading the text creatively in most of these spaces. It's, it's not like somebody's gonna go, well, I don't think that's actually what that text means. But he's doing this in, in a very set way and what fascinates me about it is we see this in act. 

[00:24:01] This is, It's, I think this is a bit of an insight into how the early church preach. I, I think that what you've got in Stephen's sermon is, and you see elements of it in what Peter does. In the sermons we've looked at of, of Peter's so far you see strong elements of this sort of idea through not only Paul's talking. 

[00:24:25] In Acts, but actually the way Paul builds logic in his letters is definitely rooted in this model. Hebrews would be another example of a text that's doing this. Very simple sim, not simple, sorry. Hebrews would be an example of a text that's doing something very similar as well. We're gonna look at scripture. 

[00:24:45] We're gonna follow the trajectory of it, we're gonna end up with Jesus. And in fact, of course, some people would argue that Hebrews bears the hallmarks of perhaps being a sermon that has just been mailed as a letter afterwards. But I couldn't help but think, John, about this line in Luke 24 

[00:25:04] John: Come on. 

[00:25:05] David: and verse 27, 

[00:25:07] John: I've just looked that up. I've, as you've been talking, I knew where you were going, so I've literally just looked that up. You, we, we we're sort of now getting sort of telepathic and and it's like, so I've literally just opened that text as you were talking. 

[00:25:22] David: Well, do you want, do you want to interject? You jump in then. 

[00:25:25] John: Well, well, if I've read your mind right, here's where I think we're going. This gorgeous story of the two on the road to a mess. Jesus joins them and then he says this, oh, foolish ones and sl of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Was it not necessary that the Cray should. These things enter into his glory. 

[00:25:46] And then it says this, and I love this. And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures, the things concerning himself. Have I got that right? Is that where you were going? 

[00:26:01] David: exactly where I was going. Yes. 

[00:26:02] John: Come on, 

[00:26:04] David: and, and so I was thinking that. Is, let me ask this as a question, is what we're seeing here in Stephen, which we detect in Hebrews and in Paul, and also in Peter's sermons, actually a module given to the church by Jesus himself, that, that, you and I have said in many places including on this podcast that. 

[00:26:26] Luke 24, 27 may be one of the most frustrating bits of the Bible in that, we know that Jesus preached a sermon wherein he explains himself according to scripture, and Luke doesn't record it but actually there's a part of me wonders if, Luke doesn't record. But we do see that the early church take this model up, that this is what early church preaching is. 

[00:26:50] It's to begin with the things we know to be true and show how Jesus has always been present in that story. And that what we thought was one story is actually a story about Jesus. So there's a retelling and a redefining that. I love this notion in Luke 24 of Christ in all the scriptures, and this is a, this is a deeply, deeply Christian way of reading the text that, that we see the word of God. 

[00:27:20] In the Old Testament, we, we see him present and I was just I was just reading Isaiah chapter two the other day there, and you get this sort of beautiful notion in Isaiah chapter two of, of the word. Of the Lord coming out and the law of the Lord going out. And in the very next sentence, those things are referred to as he and in the early Christians jumped into that. 

[00:27:45] And so, oh look, Christ is again still in the scriptures. John, in John chapter one in the beginning was the word Christ is present in all the scriptures. So, so potentially Stephen becomes the model, not just of how. The early church did sermons, but potentially Stephen is showing us this is how Jesus taught us to do sermons. 

[00:28:08] Is that too much of a 

[00:28:09] John: Oh no, no. Love that. I'm sold. I'm sold on idea. And I think, we've seen that in Peter already. We're now seeing that in Steven and a few chapters time or a few podcast time. We'll see Philip with an Ethiopian Munich taking the scroll of Isaiah and said, oh, I, I, I know who that's talking about. 

[00:28:29] David: Yes. 
 

[00:28:29] John: So taking one of the four great servant songs of Isaiah and saying, oh, oh, that's, that's Jesus. And, and clearly whatever Jesus downloaded. And, and, and later on in Luke 24 when he's got the whole of the group with them, he says, these are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses the prophet. 

[00:28:54] And the Sams must be filled. There's the beautiful holistic TaNaK there. The Torah, neem prophets, keve writings. Absolutely beautiful stuff. And then it says verse 45. Then he opened. Their minds to understand the scriptures. I just, I love this, I love this, that something is downloaded, not just information, but a way of reading the scripture, a way of understanding Jesus in the text. 

[00:29:25] David: Mm, 
 

[00:29:25] John: A way of seeing him present in it all. And, and I think those, those early, that first generation of wonderful Jewish believers grab that and absolutely work the text to, to, to the glory of God reinterpreting the text with Jesus at the center and Steven. Is, I think a product of that approach. I think he's mastering this and it's an outstanding apologetic from Na TaNaK in terms of the presence of Jesus in the text and, and the fact that he is above and beyond the place. 

[00:30:06] But, but rather he's invested into hearts and people and, and I think this is a glorious setup for what is about to, for what is about to happen. So it it's magnificent. No, I, I, I think you're on the money, David. 

[00:30:19] David: which case there's actually a, an implicit comment being made here for us, which is about the sermon, I think, which is that the sermon is not just a talk, right. The the and, and, and I, and I'm not picking here, please don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not picking on the language with cues we, we use in churches to talk about the sermon. 

[00:30:44] John: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:44] David: Some people call it the, the talk, the homily, the, but, but the sermon as we encounter in acts is not, and let me be cheeky and say like this, John, it's not just a TED talk that happens to be Christian. Right. It's, it's not just a Christian person speaking. It's not a Christian worldview approach on a particular subject that's going on. 

[00:31:08] What acts introduces us to is that the sermon is. is essentially the story of God and how it points us towards Jesus. Right. And now, again, I I I keep using this phrase of yours that I love so much. Don't hear what I'm not saying. Stephen is answering a very current question. The, the, the social political question of the day that's on the table is what do you think about the. 

[00:31:35] Right. And, and Steven says, well, I have an answer to that, but I'm gonna do it in what we now know to be a Christian way. I'm gonna tell you this story. And there's two stories going on, isn't there? I'm gonna tell you the story of God's action in favor towards his people. And I'm gonna tell you at the same time the story of the people's tendency to miss the point and undo what God is trying to do. 

[00:31:53] And these, and, and telling this story of scripture while pointing us towards Jesus is what the early church thought of as a sermon. And I think there's like, if you're a pastor listening to this, I would say, What Steven's doing is worth a methodological wrestle through is, do my sermons look like this? 

[00:32:17] Right? Do I, do I take the, the issue dejour , the issue of the day and say, okay, where is the story of God in this? And how is this then still gonna point us to what Jesus would do be and have us be in the midst of that?  

[00:32:32] John: I, I, I love that. And, and I think Steven shows us that actually it's possible to address and answer some of those difficult issues of the day by doing it. Through the lens of Jesus rather than simply isolating the issue in itself. And it actually then Jesus becomes not, not only to focus the worldview of the church, but Jesus becomes the rationale through which we understand all things. 

[00:33:02] So, so there is a sense in which if you read Stephen's story forward, it's it. It is what it is. It, it is the story of God's dealing with a people and the journey they go on, the good bits, the bad bits, and some of the ugly bits that they also includes. But if you read that same story through the centrality of Jesus, it's a, then the story changes 

[00:33:26] and suddenly then our understanding of some of the key elements in that story, like place change. 

[00:33:31] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:31] John: Buildings change what God is attempting to do. With that people changes because now we're not attacking the place we're standing on. We're not attacking the building. We believe God lives in. We're not attacking the, the, the issues that are so dear and fundamental, but we are reinterpreting those issues through Jesus. 

[00:33:55] And therefore an understanding that Jesus is in, to quote Stephen the righteous one that, that Jesus is the fulfillment, the prophet that Moses spoke about, the resurrected savior, then, then actually that forces us to rethink place. It forces us to rethink temple. It forces us to rethink what we thought we. and I think it's a beautiful way of, of, I mean, controversial and difficult, but it's a beautiful and difficult way of addressing those issues. We're not attacking people, but we are presenting Jesus. And Jesus by very definition, is going to force us to rethink the issues of our day. 

[00:34:40] Does that make sense?  

[00:34:41] David: Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And that's, I think, I think that's what all good preaching does. Right. And I've made a comment to pastors just there cuz we, we know that a few pastors listen to us. But I think there's also a comment for us as heroes of sermons as well. I think very often, you and I have sat in a lot of sermons in our life, and I'm sure a few of our listeners have sat in sermons as well, and it, when I read this from Steven, it also reminds me that as a, as a listener, as a congregant, the questions that I often ask about a sermon are the wrong questions, right? 

[00:35:22] So, was this. Better than the previous sermon I heard. Is it funnier? Is it shorter? Do I like the preacher more? This sermon was a little less political. This sermon was a little less, justice focused. I liked what this preacher wore better than the other preacher, what was the race of the preacher? 

[00:35:42] How did that affect me? What was the gender of the preacher actually, If you track what Steven's doing here, all of these are the wrong questions. ? The question actually is, With, with what this sermon is answering, how is it telling the story and pointing me towards Jesus? And if I could be really strong, I would say that if you're a listener to a sermon, that's the only thing that matters. 

[00:36:12] And. Everything else beyond that is just preference, and, and possibly in its really bad cases, even idolatry where we just, I, I want it to be the way that I want it to be, not what the text is actually trying to do. And I think you, you can be hugely liberated. I massively liberated in your involvement in church and listening to sermons. 

[00:36:34] If you ask that question, how is this sermon pointing me towards Jesus? And I would be even tempted to say, you'll find that sermons you previously thought were bad, you now realize are good and potentially sermons. You previously thought were. Might not be as good as you previously, previously thought they were. 

[00:36:53] But I think it's a wonderful matrix to guide me as a, as a church member, towards what should I be looking for when I come to listen to a sermon. And the same might also be true of songs as well, but that's another podcast, 

[00:37:10] John: No, I, I, I couldn't agree more. And, and I think that if, if we. Can have the courage to move sermons in the modern church away from modes of entertainment. And it's, it's good, it's good to, if we can include entertainment within our sermons, but ultimately at the end of the day, we want people to walk away with something. 

[00:37:34] I, I went last week to the to the turning on of the Christmas lights in our, in our local town, and they were selling. Candy floss. And we bumped into some friends and a friend there said, would you like some candy floss? I said, no, I, 

[00:37:47] David: cotton candy, as we call it in North America, 

[00:37:49] John: cotton candy. Yeah. We, we call it, we call it candy floss here in the uk. 

[00:37:54] And, and, and candy floss, is an amazing contradiction. It's big, it's fluffy. You put it in your mouth and it's sort of, Vanishes. 

[00:38:05] David: Yes, 
 

[00:38:06] John: And, and ultimately what could not be said of Stephen's sermon is this is candy floss. I mean, there's no vanishing in this. This is, this is in your mouth. This is gonna stick in your throat. 

[00:38:16] This is going to either give you life or create indigestion or, or you're gonna have to spit this thing out. There's no way you can ignore this. And, and I suppose that's the model we're seeing in the church. There's nothing fluffy, there's nothing there. There's. desire or pressure to entertain the audience. 

[00:38:37] It is, okay, here's the truth. Here's here's what we do. Here's what we believe. Jesus is the center. What do you think? And, and, and everything is positioned to in empower and equip and provoke the audience to the review of Jesus and with. Demand response one way or the other. And of course, as we will eventually see, whenever we get to it, Stephen provokes an incredible response, which has profound repercussions in the early church. 

[00:39:11] But it is a sermon that certainly that, that, that strikes to the heart and leaves something of both substance and challenge with its. 

[00:39:21] David: Yes. Yes. , and that's, that is what scripture does. I think it, it, it, it read the way that Stephen is guiding us, and that's what I, that's why I get so excited about this sermon, John, is because. It's actually a key to understand so much of the New Testament that this is what so much of the New Testament is doing, is saying that text is actually pointing us, I mean, we are recording this in the midst of Advent. 

[00:39:47] Go read Matthews gospel, the, the texts from Matthews Gospel. It's all Matthew's doing in the early parts of his gospel. He said, well, this fulfills that bit of scripture and this fulfills that bit of scripture. He's, he's joining the dots and pointing you towards Jesus Exactly like Steven's doing here. 

[00:40:06] This is, this is what it is to study scripture. Actually, this is why Christians kept the Old Testament, and I don't mean that dismissively in, in any, like, I'm, I wanna cover all my bases, John, when I say that, But occasionally you're in context and you wonder, in this particular group I'm in, you almost get away with not having the Old Testament. 

[00:40:27] So little attention is paid to it. But the New Testament, Christians could not have got away without the Old Testament. They saw Jesus everywhere in it. I was reading something just recently and they referred to Isaiah as the Fifth Gospel . Because the Christians use that book so heavily to see Jesus, that it's almost as if they, they read it as if it was a Christian text. 

[00:40:51] And that occasionally has caused challenge challenges throughout history. But I think for us as Christians, it's this realization that this whole text is pointing us on a particular story. And Stephen does it so effortlessly, right? In the face of a group of people that are. Most definitely an angry mob. 

[00:41:13] And, and they are. And, and yet still he can easily just track this story gently pulling in their agreement. And then the turn for me, John, the turn at the end, when he's talking about David and then. No, Solomon gets to build a house. And then that verse 48 turn, yet the most high does not dwell in how he's made with human hands. 

[00:41:37] And this is where it starts to tighten up on everybody and, and you realize, can I say the trap that Stephen has set, that I have brought you into agree with how I'm reading the scripture and now I'm gonna roll out a piece of scripture to you. , which actually says the very thing I'm saying, heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. 

[00:41:58] And, and then you get everything that's been going on with Acts, the Holy Spirit, God's presence in us, as Paul later calls us the Temple of the Holy Spirit. You get the tension of where Christianity really at some level, forms itself, at least in its own heart as a separat. Group at some level that they're beginning to see themselves differently because of the space they're currently standing in. 

[00:42:27] So it's really significant, isn't it? 

[00:42:29] John: It's huge. It's huge. And Stephen is leading his audience wonderfully, beautifully, sensitively and respectfully away from place and towards person and teaching him. But in fact, the place of freedom holiness in life is in that person, the person of Jesus. 

[00:42:52]