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[00:00:00] John: So David, last time we reflected on this incredibly amazing troublesome some. and interesting story of Anna Na and Sia and and, and the contrast of the sort of Barnabas moment at the end of chapter four. What's going on here? And, and why this is such a serious issue, this idea of lying to God and allowing perhaps a love of things to enter the heart and displace God. 

[00:01:21] And drives an essence fire to make these profoundly selfish decisions, which ultimately cost them hugely. I, I do love your, you, you, you gave a final reflection on laying things at the feet that Barnabas led his, his money at the feet of the apostles. Just let it down. Give it up. And you have this contrast, Annana and Ahi. 

[00:01:41] Literally the story ends with them at the feet of the apostles. Their lives taken from them. And we, we reflected on the tension of the, of the laying down of something before the hand of God. So very powerful ideas there. And of course the, the story doesn't finish there. It sort of moves on into this lovely little follow up moment that even though we've got a very powerful engagement with un essence of fire, it doesn't seem to hinder the work of the church at. 

[00:02:10] David: No. 
 

[00:02:10] John: And the church seems to sort of move on and we see this lovely little mini section, I suppose from verse 12 onwards that we're gonna reflect a little bit on today. 

[00:02:21] David: Yes. absolutely John and the whole story. Maybe, maybe we should have had a content warning on the last on the last episode, but it's got a little dark at various points,  

[00:02:31] John: it's, it, it uh, that was a bit edgy. 

[00:02:33] David: so let's read chapter five. And, and what I'll do just to, just to Propel our conversation. Let me actually read from verse 11 just before this section, cuz I think it'll, it'll cause that jump for us well wanted. But. Luke, the master of articulation, the brilliant ability to write and connect thoughts with his words, but also occasionally the master of understatement as well. 

[00:02:58] His conclusion to the Anani and s Sephora story, people have lied to God and just have dropped dead, and verse 11 says, And great fear sees the whole church and all who heard these things? I mean, I kind of feel like if this, if you were present to this story, that would be about the most controlled way you could describe what happened afterwards. 

[00:03:20] John: Yes. 
 

[00:03:21] David: great fear sees the whole church and all who heard those things. Now many signs and wonders were done among the people through the apostles and they were all together. In Solomon's particle. None of the rest dared to join them, but the people heard them and held them in high esteem. Yet more than ever, believers were added to the Lord, great numbers of both men and women, so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats in order that Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he came by. 

[00:03:58] A great number of people would also gather from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all cured 

[00:04:09] John: Mm, Wow. So like, like from that little mini section it doesn't look like the work of the church suffered. In any way, shape or form as a result of the Anana and Sia event. And, and I, I, I love the sort of paradoxical feel to this, the sort of the tension in this text in that when we reflected on Anana and Sia last time Earlier on, in fact that's, there's a lovely echo in verse 11 that you picked up on, but earlier on in verse five, it says, And great fear came upon all who heard it? 

[00:04:45] Now that seems to imply, Fear specifically in verse five of what happened to Ananias. And then, so that that feel, it's a bit localized. And in verse 11, great fear sees the whole church, which seems to have a wider implication and all Who heard about these events? So clearly the, the sort of the the, the, the gossip factory now is at work. 

[00:05:11] People are talking about this. And a, and a wider fear. So, So you get twice this idea of great fear. Not just fear, but great fear is, is on all who've either directly witnessed this story or heard of it, and you would think then as a result of that, because of that great fear that somehow that would. 

[00:05:35] Critically damaged the ability of the church to do its job and affect it's pr and the fact, it's the ability to, to reach people because my goodness, who, who wants to join a community, were like you could be, you could go in alive and carried out dead. So, so it, it, it doesn't seem to, to affect it at all yet, yet that great fear is. 

[00:05:59] They're in the midst of that. Does that, that seems to sort of stand out as a huge paradox, doesn't it? 

[00:06:04] David: I don't want to speak bad of any of the congregations that you or I work within, but I do get the subtle feeling that war we to announce. Anybody that comes to church and tells lies will die, I feel would affect attendance at some at some level, . And and, maybe all of our attendance would be affected. 

[00:06:23] I I, I love the, the tension actually of the text. I love how Luke reports this, that, that you've got. So signs and wonders are being done at the hands of the apostles, Right. And they're all together in Solomon's, Portugal. None of the rest dared to join them, but people held them in high esteem and yet at the same time, more than ever, believers have been added to the Lord. 

[00:06:46] You can feel Luke almost describing the tension that this church is finding itself, and it's like some people go, Oh my goodness. Like there is no chance I'm going to any anywhere near those people. But then another group of people are going, Oh no, but they're, But like, you. Take them very seriously because of everything that's going on. 

[00:07:05] And also then other people going, Oh my goodness, if this is what's happening, this God must be real. So I am absolutely getting on board with this. I mean, it's beautiful cause I think that's, Exactly what you would expect would happen if this was a historic event. And I think you see, the way Luke tells the story just to me just resonates with he is just describing things that actually happened. 

[00:07:31] John: Yeah, yeah. And, and I, I had a reflection on the fact that everything we, we witnessed at the end of chapter four and then into chapter five and I into this little. Many, almost little conclusion to the anana of fire. We go from the darkness of, my goodness, that was a bit heavy. Sort of puts the fear of God in you to, oh, and by the way, the Holy Spirit's still working and miracles are still happening. 

[00:07:57] And I couldn't help but reflect back, David to the prayer. We chatted about a number of podcasts ago where at the end of that sort of persecution moment when, when Peter and John come back to the believers and I love what it sort of says there in the context of this, when they're praying, as they're praying, stretch out your hand, verse 30 of chapter four, stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the. 

[00:08:25] Of your holy servant Jesus. And after they played the place where they were meeting was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. Now back back to verse 30, stretch out your hand to heal. We love that bit. Perform signs and wonders. We love that idea, but But it struck me, right? 

[00:08:44] It struck me. Menis could be a random striking of a thought, but it struck me is the Ananias and Sehi story as much part of the signs and wonder. 

[00:08:54] As the healings of these people that literally try to catch the shadow of Peter. Do you know what I mean? What an amazing statement that is. Now in our human estimation of this, we're going, Oh, well, yeah, bring in the sick out so that Peter's shadow touches them and heals them. 

[00:09:12] Of course, that's the sign in wonder. Anai ands. Like dying in, in front of Peter, not so much. And yet, has, has Luke connected both of these events or, or both of these expressions as part of this signs and wonders and the Lord reaching out his hand 

[00:09:36] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:36] John: do this sort of stuff? Is that, is that a stretch or do you think that's in there as part of the flow of the passage? 

[00:09:42] David: while you were talking, I was, I was furiously searching the septus um, digitally. John, I'm not that impressive. Don't please, I hope the listeners know. 

[00:09:54] John: Yes, I saw, I saw, I saw you roll in your scroll out and I'm thinking, what's he doing? What's he doing? 

[00:09:58] David: true. I, I, I dunno, maybe I cut this story from the, from the episode, but I remember being in a room with some genuinely brilliant professors one day, and a young scholar who had done about six years work on a particular subject, made this comment and they said, Nowhere in this app Togan, is this phrase used. 

[00:10:18] And this very senior New Testament scholar, she leaned back in her. Closed her eyes stared at the ceiling, with her eyes closed for a few minutes and then said, Have you checked this verse? And everybody in the room turned to that verse and we're like, Oh yeah, there is there 

[00:10:35] John: Wow. 
 

[00:10:36] David: And it was, and it was like that horrible moment of think somebody had put lots and lots of time and effort reading in and somebody from memory that just knew the scriptures,  

[00:10:45] John: wow. 
 

[00:10:46] David: but a, a quick search on my, on my devices of the SEP two. Again, it's interesting that the phrase signs and wonders Samia Chiara, which you enca in the Greek that is, which is which you en encounter. Know, in the prayer that you were just you were just talking about, but also, Also you've got the same, the same phrase in verse 12. 

[00:11:11] Many signs and wonders were done. It's just worth noting in the SEP two again Exodus seven. I will harden Pharaoh's heart and I will multiply my Seia and Teta. And Deuteronomy four. Has any God ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself in the midst of trials, signs and wonders. War a mighty hand. 

[00:11:30] You the, the, what God did against Egypt is constantly referred to as signs and wonders. So that's gonna include a death of the firstborn rivers of blood. So I don't think it's. I think this phrase, Seia Ka Tara, I think it is anything that brings a sense of awesomeness to, oh my goodness, and that could be the raising of the dead, but I think it could also be the anani and Seora story. 

[00:11:55] So I, I would say, I would be tempted to say, John, not only is it not a stretch to include anani and Safara, I think Luke is absolutely meaning us to see signs and wonders. Don't necessarily. Good things, they could also be bad things. Does that help, Do you think that helps your point? 

[00:12:15] John: Oh, it helps brilliantly. And I think that's why verse 11 is, is the great link there, isn't it? It's, it's, you first hand, we've got, we've got like, Sia being carried out and and buried beside her husband. Well, that would be a, that would be a fairly somber conclusion. But then verse 11. It's not just concluding the Unas Ofia story, but it's linking forward to verse 12. 

[00:12:40] The apostles perform many signs and wonders, but it's also linking back to that previous prayer. It's almost like we've got this mini section is bookended by the coming of the Holy Spirit in the prayer meeting, and now the Holy Spirit being demonstrated in both. The confrontation with analysis of fire and the Holy Spirit being demonstrated now in the, in the classical ways that we love and hope's going to be demonstrated where, where the broken or healed and, and the sick are raised up. 

[00:13:13] But actually the two ideas are linked. And we've got, we've got two dramatic signs of signs and wonders represented in the same story linked by this idea of great fear season. 

[00:13:26] David: Mm. 
 

[00:13:26] John: So we, we, we've been trying to big picture reflect on the. disrupting spirit. So, so, we're seeing different ways in which the spirit is moving a very dramatic way in announce of fire as on an equally dramatic way in healing the sick via the shadow of Peter. 

[00:13:45] So these are marvelous, marvelous events. But they're also, they're all, they also make us feel like, okay. We are, it's like we are in, in working with the spirit. We, we are given a degree of accessibility. We are given a degree of partnership and encounter, but we, we must always remember we're dealing with someone way above our pay grade in that respect. 

[00:14:08] And, and, and we must never become familiar or casual. Or routine or formulaic about the spirit because the Holy Spirit now in chapter five has, is demonstrating lots of different ways in which he's moving and in which he's working. And, and we must never try and sort of formalize him and then think that somehow we understand everything about him. 

[00:14:35] So it's, it's it, I thought it was, I thought it was a lovely connector there with that idea of signs and wonders. It's beautiful. 

[00:14:42] David: And I just, I, I would want to just hold. Not quickly move past that comment you made just there about that. We must be careful not to formalize the Holy Spirit. And, and I would say, to bring that into the kind of the modern context, taking it from act context that one of the problems that Pentecostal and charismatic movements and, and let me be clear. 

[00:15:09] Movements that are not formerly formally Pentecostal and charismatic, but are interested in the work of the Holy Spirit. There is a constant attempt by us as humans. I think a mistake made by us as humans to try and predict and. Almost define how the Holy Spirit will work. Right. And, and I think, as somebody who's, you and I have said this before, but you know, entered Pentecostal churches before I was cognizant of life. 

[00:15:37] I was, I was brought to Pentecostal churches. I. We're very, very quick historically to say, Well, this is how it'll work. You'll do this and then this will happen. Then you'll do that and this will happen. I think about the long standing arguments in Pentecostalism around speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, these sort of things. 

[00:15:54] Very, very formulaic but dangerously formulaic to the point that what we say is, and if it doesn't happen in this formula, we then want to raise questions over whether that's the Holy Spirit and. 

[00:16:08] John: Mm. 
 

[00:16:08] David: I am convinced. And I, and I always hope this doesn't cost me my Pentecostal card because I am still a Pentecostal, but I am convinced that AX is trying to teach us the exact. 

[00:16:21] Opposite of that point, right? Of do not try and force the Holy Spirit into a model that suits us. To the extent that I would, even if I could be so bold, I would even criticize the early church for their naming of this book, because of course, Luke never calls the book the acts of the apostles, right? 

[00:16:40] He just calls it his second volume. So the name, the acts of the apostles has become applied. In church history a little bit later I think it should be called the acts of the Spirit because the acts of the apostles gives the impression that they are the protagonist of this story. That they're making this happen, they're choosing how it works. 

[00:17:00] But we're only five chapters in, and it's very, very clear that not only is that not happening, The apostles are very cognizant that that's not how this is working. Like Peter is absolutely clear how this is working and it's not him, right? And yet, by calling the book the Acts of the Apostles, we subtly fall into that danger of saying, Look at what the apostles are doing. 

[00:17:20] And I think that perhaps even affects us sometimes as people interested in the work of the spirit to say, How do we make this work? And, and I, I think the spirit goes where the spirit chooses to go. 

[00:17:34] John: mm. 
 

[00:17:34] David: be okay with that. I'm, and maybe you want to cut all ties with me, John, after a comment like that and say, No, that's David in Canada. 

[00:17:44] But I mean, do you hear what I'm trying to wrestle with a little bit there. 

[00:17:47] John: Totally, Totally do. Totally do. And I, I, I think even the way this passage is constructed helps us with that. So it's interesting that our, our, our mini passage within the passage begins with Peter confronting Anana shi. Right. And Peter seems to be aware from, by whatever it means. We, we nuanced the idea that, that probably the Holy Spirit has, has spoken. 

[00:18:14] To Peter and revealed this. So that's, that's accept that idea. The Holy Spirit speaks to Peter, but there doesn't seem to be anything in the text that Peter is, is aware that what the Holy Spirit is about to do to Anna as he's about to do. So it's not like Peter says, Oh, because of that you're gonna die, and then he dies. 

[00:18:33] It's like Oz, he's listening to Peter, he hits the floor. When he hears this, it's, it's, then something else happens. Now we're not told, we're not told that the Holy Spirit did that. We're not told that Peter, but, but there's this, there's this moment of silence where as he's listening to Peter, he hits the floor. 

[00:18:52] Then you go to the end of, of verse 16 in chapter five, and it's Peter's shadow, 

[00:18:57] David: Yes. Yes. I was just thinking 

[00:18:59] John: So, so you, you've got, you've got his shadow. Is is, people are, are, are, are literally laying the sick so that the shadow of, of pe well there's no formula for that. There's no, there's no like, oh yeah, oh that's in the third chapter of whatever. 

[00:19:17] That's just something the holy. Now, the minute we try to formalize that either ends of that story, the minute we start to invest this, this sort of. Overstretch the authority of the Apostle with the Holy Spirit, with the anana of fire situation, We're into dangerous territory. The minute we then overcook the shadow stuff. 

[00:19:38] We're into dangerous territory and all the time we're looking for a. Well, if I press that button, press this button and press that button, what will I get? And, and this is the, this is the wonderfully gloriously frustrating thing about working in the life of the spirit is that though there are clearly some patterns that we can learn from and follow, he, he works in ways where we're actually, that, that there's no formula to that. 

[00:20:07] There's no. Book on that. There's no controlled system on that. So what, what I feel, David is exactly the point you've made. When Peter speaks to Anna Ananias, the Holy Spirit moves and the Holy Spirit takes Anna Ananias out, and I don't, I'm fairly certain Peter's not even expect that to happen. And then as Peter's walking down the. 

[00:20:29] Whole bunch of people stick their, stick their sick in front of of Peter and the shadow of Peter heal. I'm pretty sure that Peter didn't wake up thinking, Oh my shadow's gonna rock the world today. I think that that is the Holy Spirit working. Gloriously spontaneously doing what he will do and all he's looking for. 

[00:20:50] And it's interest that Peter Toson teals it. All he's looking for is a willing vessel, is a, is a person willing to not control him, but a person willing to be used by him. 

[00:21:00] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:01] John: And I think if we've got, if we've got a community willing to be used and and unwilling to control, Then, then maybe, maybe we would see a little bit more in our day-to-day lives, or even more in our corporate communities of the work of, of the spirit, Let him move and it's our job to accommodate him, not control him. 

[00:21:29] David: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:30] John: is that fair as a, as an observation in terms of Peter? But I, I just think, I, I don't get any sense that Peter's controlling the spirit, rather he's cooperating with the. 

[00:21:42] David: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:42] John: no, there's no hint again that Peter Shadow healed anybody in the rest of the book of X. It may have happened, but there's no, there's no follow up story. 

[00:21:52] Oh, that a Ministry of Shadow Healing Moments broke out in the Book X. It's just, it's one of those moments where the Holy Spirit does something quite spectacular, spontaneous, and unique, and we just gotta recognize that that's what that is and not try to control that. 

[00:22:08] I think.  

[00:22:09] David: I laughed when you started talking about the shadow. 

[00:22:10] Cause I was, I was just thinking about the same thing. Is there anything you are in less control of? Than your shadow 

[00:22:21] John: It's a great thought. 

[00:22:22] David: So, so there's also a level just to add to what you're saying on a practical point that, like, yeah, you just have a shadow and you create a shadow by standing in the way of the sun. And so , there's, that sense. That I, I feel even a resonance in this passage because it's the shadow, that there, it is quite literally a part of us, which is created by something outside of us. And, 

[00:22:46] John: It's 
 

[00:22:46] David: and, and so, so there's also this sense that, that I just think, i, I can't say for sure that's what Luke is trying to communicate, but I think it supports what you are, what you are saying just now, that, that you can't build a formula for this. 

[00:23:02] And even if you could build a formula for it, the sun moves and so does your shadow. So, so I, I'm tempted to think this is exactly what Luke is, is drawing to our attention here. It's like, don't think Peter's the protagonist he is, the Holy Spirit is the protagonist. 

[00:23:17] The Holy Spirit is the one making these things happen. And, and we are just, I mean, I don't mean this flippantly, but we're just along for the ride, right? We're just, we're just in this immensely privileged place. Of, of, of being the thing that causes the shadow, but knowing that the strength comes from, from, from God and I, I think, I, I think that is, that is a story that you see. 

[00:23:43] Think of the Gideon story. God's like, I need to get you to a place Gideon, that when this story plays out, you'll know it was me that did this. Right. This is, this is rooted in the education of of, of the people who are people of scripture, which Luke clearly is. So, I don't think this should surprise us, but it definitely warns us. 

[00:24:03] To be careful of being overly formulaic. I mean, like you say, I mean, I love what you're saying there because I mean, this is a very serious problem I think in, in, in Pentecostal and charismatic history that we have formalized how this spirit works. But the thing that really deeply upsets me about that is that as soon as we formalized it, anybody that doesn't fit within that formula is excluded. 

[00:24:27] And and I've been in context where people have said, Well, no, that, that didn't work the way we expected to. Well, that's okay. That didn't work the way we expected to is the story of Acts. Right. I think Peter, in his debrief afterwards, the Anani and shi thing, I, and I'm being facetious here, but I can imagine Peter saying to John, I did not expect that to happen. 

[00:24:47] Right? That's, that's not what I saw coming here. So we must learn to live constantly in there. That's not how we expected it, but we've. Deeply careful of going from that's not what we expected and therefore is wrong. That's what I think we need to be careful of. Not that it things, of course things can be wrong, of course things can be right, but who's making that judgment call? 

[00:25:11] And to me, an acts, the clear thing is the Holy Spirit is making that judgment call. And, and, and that should continue,  

[00:25:18] John: brilliant. No, I love that. And I loved, I loved your reflection. I hope our, hope our listeners just got that, the shadow is created because you stand in, in the light of something else. And, and and I think that's absolutely a beautiful idea that actually, again, imagine to, to pick up your, your reflection. 

[00:25:38] Imagine Peter debriefing after that. So how does that work? No idea. I have no idea how that works, because there's no example of anyone being healed by the shadow of Jesus. 

[00:25:49] David: mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:50] John: this is, I guess as far as I can say in the gospel book of accent, this is the first time anything like this has ever happened. 

[00:25:56] So it's not like he's reaching for something, it's like, wow, it's a brand new thing. And then afterwards, so, so like, how did it work? What happened? How can we replicate it? And I don't think that would ever have been their conversation. I think, Wow, look what the Lord did today. That even just walking down the street somehow when my shadow touch people. 

[00:26:16] They got healed. But you recognize, right? That's a, that's a, that's a thing which may be repeated tomorrow, but it may not be repeated tomorrow. But the issue is not whether it gets repeated. The issue is that Peter was willing to walk down the street in the first place and engaged the broken and the second. 

[00:26:34] So if, if we will put ourselves in the street and put ourselves in the way of the sun, then maybe he can do something. Literally or metaphorically with our shadow and with our presence. And I think that's, that's the point of all of that. 

[00:26:47] David: And don't you love, actually, don't you love the fact that it never happens to Jesus, Right? Cuz there's a little bit of me, and realize we're just writing somebody's Sunday sermon for them here now, John, But and, and, and as we've always said, you can steal everything you want from two texts. 

[00:27:01] But, but, but of course. So let me, let me say it in sermon type formula. But you know, because Jesus cannot stand in the light of the sun because he is the light. So, so you contrast in, in Luke chapter eight, what you get is the, is the, the woman reaches out and touchy Jesus, because he, and he says, power has gone from me because  

[00:27:25] John: Mm  
 

[00:27:26] David: Does have the power, right? So there's this potentially just in the creative space of reading scripture here. I'm not saying that Luke is drawing this parallel, but in the gospels, the person reaches out to touch Jesus because the power. Is Jesus. Whereas in Acts, the shadow, because the power is not Peter, the power is the Holy Spirit. 

[00:27:48] And so touching of Peter, he's just another person like anybody else. So, even as I'm saying that, I'm thinking, I don't think Luke's drawing that parallel, but now as I'm saying, oh, maybe he is, maybe he wants us to see that parallel, that the Jesus and Peter are not the same and, and even though the Holy Spirit is drawing us into the power of Jesus. 

[00:28:07] There's still a delineation between, between who the spirit of God is and who we are. And so like, I don't know. I, I mean, I just, I just love that sort of stuff. I think it's, I think it's kind of neat.  

[00:28:17] John: Oh, it's, it's beautiful. And, and I do love the echo in verse 16. I mean, it is absolutely gorgeous here. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed. And I, I couldn't help. I, I, I thought, Hold on. 

[00:28:37] That's, that just sounds so familiar. And I went back to Matthew. David Jesus went throughout Galilee teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. And love this is that news about him spread all over Syria and people brought to him. 

[00:28:56] All who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demonized, those having seizures and the paralyzed and he healed them. And then it's, it concludes here in Matthew, large crowds from Galilee, the Decaps, Jerusalem, Judea, and the region across the Jordan followed him. And I just, I love the beautiful sort of, Side by side of that, that, that as this community now continues to expand that, that people are not only gathering but bringing the sick, bringing the broken, and they're healed. 

[00:29:36] And that is a gorgeous continuation on. From the ministry that, that Jesus begins where people are brought to him from all sorts of places and all shapes and sizes, and he heals them. So again, I love how Luke is, is connecting all the time, the work of the spirit in this new community to the work of the Spirit in Jesus. 

[00:30:01] To the, to the idea that this is a continuation of the story, but the same spirit working in both, and that that actually that this is something that we can celebrate and lean into. And I loved what you said and, and I think it's absolutely right. It wasn't Peter healing the sick. It's not Peter's. Shadow in that respect. 

[00:30:22] It just happens to be the shadow of Peter that the Holy Spirit uses. But, but Luke is reminding us all of this back to the prayer. Lord, stretch out your hand, do signs and wonders that you know you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes out. This is all back to the abiding presence of the Spirit and just as the spirit empowered Jesus, the spirit empowers the early church Peter and the other followers of the way to do what he has done.