Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] Outro: Hi there and welcome to the last Christmas bonus episode of two texts. It is almost Christmas and we're all thinking about presence and stuff like that. So it seems appropriate that today, John and I are talking about the magi. And they're gifts for Jesus.  

[00:00:28] John: So David, we are back. We had a fantastic chat earlier this week about Jusuf. Oh, I just love that. And have to say I was, I think the two of us could have kept talking about Joseph for a wee while longer there. That was what, a story. And though He  

[00:00:44] David: say anything. We had a lot to say about him. 

[00:00:48] John: It's just a bit, you took the words right out of  

[00:00:50] my mouth. Well, no, no, you're okay. It's, it's, it's probably a saying that we are, we are sinking almost automatically together. So Yes. absolutely. He never speaks, but, but we did a little bit of speaking on his behalf and his actions were, oh my goodness. 

[00:01:06] Just magnificent actions within that. But we're going to try and nudge in a little bit to another part of what sometimes called the Christmas story and that's the visit of the magi and and see what we can pull from that. So, so we go from this gorgeous finish at the end of chapter, one of Matthew but he did not consummate their marriage until he gave birth to a son and he give him the name Jesus, and then it straight in to this beautiful story of the magic. 

[00:01:35] So if you want to read that for us and that see where.  

[00:01:39] David: I do. And I imagine this is another one of those those words that I think has four letters and I have heard at least five different ways that people have said it.  

[00:01:52] John: That's be great.  

[00:01:52] Absolutely.  

[00:01:53] David: I remember at my in fact it was our, we both were, I think we both were taught by, by the same new Testament lecture in our early days. 

[00:02:01] I remember him telling us once it's a hard G Latin doesn't have a soft G and the entire class promptly ignored him and said, we're not going around and talking about the muggy. 

[00:02:14] So, so imagine is, so Matthew chapter two in verse one, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem, in Judea during the time of king Herod magi from the east, came to Jerusalem and dad. Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews. We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him. When king Herod heard this, he was disturbed and all Jerusalem with him. 

[00:02:42] When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. In Judea, they replied for, this is what the prophet has written, but you Bethlehem in the land of Judah are by no means, least amongst the rulers of Judah for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people, Israel. 

[00:03:05] So they inherit called the measure. I secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, go and search carefully for the child, as soon as you find him report to me so that I too may go and worship. After they heard the king, they went on their way and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was, when they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 

[00:03:31] I'm coming to the house. They saw the child with his mother, Mary and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another roots. 

[00:03:52] John: Beautiful. Beautiful.  

[00:03:54] David: There you  

[00:03:55] John: Of course, this is, this is sometimes referred to as the epiphany. Isn't it there, but it's, there's this sense of a moment. I, I actually had a fresh look at the definition of a pepperoni, a moment of self. And grit revelation or realization. Oh, I love that. And it pithany. And of course we, we see it. 

[00:04:15] We sort of see a lot of seen a lot of moments of realization hopping in the story, which is, which is absolutely beautiful. But we, last time we talked about the fact that we take the different gospel stories and we sort of amalgamate them together. And this is probably one of those stories that suffered from having its chronology, uh, nudged a little bit the, the, the, the Margie raving with the shepherds, et cetera, which,  

[00:04:44] David: Yes,  
 

[00:04:44] John: refers only confident  

[00:04:46] David: And embarrassing. The shepherds because their gifts are a little Badger. 

[00:04:50] John: Absolutely. Yeah. The shepherds of like, not even re-upped anything, and these boys are rocking up with serious gold-plated gifts. So, so it is what it is worth. It's a story worth sort of poorly note of the, the sort of nativity scene a little bit, just to give us a better perspective. Would that be fair? 

[00:05:09] Just thinking about that.  

[00:05:10] David: Yes. I mean, there's a, there's quite a few things that, that we do that, that creates. Does that mean if you read Matthew and forget the story, right? If you forget everything you saw in your school play Matthew does give you quite a bit of evidence that, that actually, this happens quite a while later as quite quite a while later on, and even in the traditions of how we. 

[00:05:34] How we celebrate Christmas. Actually, if you, if you lean into the more traditional ways of celebrating Christmas, this is how S the story is told over a period of time. I get myself on my high horse here, John, but like, I think it's, it's only, it helps people sometimes to know this, that essentially. 

[00:05:52] This sort of, there's a period of time of four Sundays leading up to Christmas Eve that is known as advent. Right? And, and that's it's that period of time from the sort of roughly the end of November, beginning of December, those four Sundays, and then whatever space is left between those four Sundays and then Christmas Eve and advent ends. 

[00:06:11] At the end of Christmas Eve and in the classic church calendar, then at that point. And that's why, if you remember when we were kids advent calendars didn't have a 25th on them, right? Advent calendars, Andy Dunn, the 24th, where all these, all these kids, these days get an extra chocolate on the 25th. 

[00:06:27] Right. And so, so there's this sense that, that you reason that was in case you wonder when you were a kid, why did we only because that was an advent calendar and it counts then the A's the days to the end of advent in the beginning of Christmas and in the Christian tradition. And we're going back hundreds of years that this has been celebrated for Christmas is a 12 day long festival. 

[00:06:47] Hence the song, the 12 days of Christmas, which a lot of people think is a 12 day countdown to Christmas, but actually. Here's the funny thing. I hear people all the same, same seen these is all my goodness. They make, they make Christmas such a big deal nowadays. It's one day in December. And I was honestly, no, no. 

[00:07:04] Christmas is 12 days long. And the 12 days of Christmas start on the 25th and, and 12 days later on a festival, the church knows as epiphany or the day that we remember that the arrival of the, of these, of these magi and there. So for me, that's really fascinating because what it allows you to do, if you follow that tradition is tell the story as it goes. 

[00:07:28] So you keep this sense of all there's gaps in their space in time between this. So, I mean, this podcast is not about me defending tradition for them, but it's about it's sometimes you see the reason that traditions are, is to help us keep some of the story straight in our mind, rather than cramming everybody around the nativity scene. 

[00:07:50] Now, I love nativity scenes, because actually what we have to realize when you look at an activity scene is it's not like a historical snapshot of the moment. It's here are all the characters that were in play and, and therefore it remains us to tell the story to our children. Doesn't it? 

[00:08:08] John: Of course. Oh, it's beautiful. I mean, I've, I've had the privilege of going to, uh, visit the Vatican and, stewed in the Sistine chapel and looked at the ceiling of Michelangelo's magnificent pictures and paintings. And you realize my goodness, he was a magnificent artist, not necessarily a great theologian, according to some of his representation. 

[00:08:31] And I think the nativity scene it's sort of that's, what's happened to it? 

[00:08:35] over the years. A whole bunch of stuff has just morphed into the story and you end up with something. Well, we all love it. We all go. Oh yeah, absolutely. But technically it's not really, this is not really what happened. And, and you know that where those burst in anybody's bubble it's this sort of story helps us to pull that timeline out a little  

[00:09:01] David: Well notice verse 11, notice verse 11. Just let me, let me say the most controversial thing we'll ever say on on two tacks, but notice verse 11. They're in a house, not as stable. 

[00:09:15] John: Yes. And if anyone, if anyone wants some real outstanding scholarship on that let, let's take you back to one of our book recommendations a long time ago, Kenneth BLE Jesus, three middle Eastern eyes. And he will explain in just so many wonderful wares that the whole myth of the N and the innkeeper. It just it's even culturally, it's a bit unusual for that at age and that time. 

[00:09:41] And his explanation will help, and to understand that and connect the dots, diverters like this. So that's well worth the loop without us turning this into an explanation of the difference between a Ikea and then on the host. So  

[00:09:56] David: Yes. 
 

[00:09:59] So, so these may issue a couple of things. I, I spot just in this text, John, that are really, really quite interesting. There's, there's, there's one verse three. When king Herod heard this, he was disturbed and all Jerusalem with him. Like, you know that you're a dead spot when you get worried and everybody else is worried because you're worried. 

[00:10:23] John: Absolutely. I Caesar one set of Herod Siffert to be his pig than his son.  

[00:10:28] He was a bit of a megalomaniac a man given to extreme behavior. And of course we see that some, he erected magnificent buildings and then we see him not in the reading that we've heard, but as a result of the merger, J's sort of, redirection away from him, just an act of complete madness and terror where he kills all the boys under two in the facility. 

[00:10:56] Hence  
 

[00:10:56] David: also gives us a slight insight into potentially the passage of time that they, there, they, this could be anything up to two years after the birth of Jesus. 

[00:11:05] John: Yes. Yes. And so inherit. And he sometimes referred to as Herod the grid. I do think that's slate oxymoron, but there we are a inherit the grid. You do have someone who has the propensity to protect his power using any means whatsoever. And 

[00:11:25] he is an incredible person. He survives against all the odds. 

[00:11:30] He manages to position himself incredibly with the Romans 

[00:11:34] and creates a seat of power for himself that 

[00:11:38] he doesn't want anybody taken away, especially this king of the Jews. So, so you you've, you've really got a huge subtext sort of going on here at the center of the story as well. Which of course is really beautiful because it, I think you read Jesus then. In the midst of political intrigue, religious debate he is living onto the boot of Rome. Jesus isn't exempt from all of these things. He literally, and the story following the merger, he becomes a refugee from his own country, ends up in Egypt to get away from Harrod's family and Herod's grasp. 

[00:12:20] So, so immediately the story were thrust into the polarization of the society of Jesus, the vulnerability that the people were under and the world that Jesus would have grown up in. And, and Matthew introduces all of that to us immediately in the story and that lovely, soft fluffy postcard says. Of of the Christmas nativity suddenly gets a little bit dark around the edges because the visit of the magi also heralds a threat directly to the life of Jesus as a baby, as a boy.  

[00:12:56] David: And I think it's, it's interesting that you pick up that, that whole process of, of the displacement, of, of Jesus's family. And that idea, of this aligning G in one sense, and Matthew's narrative at Elaine's Jesus with Moses, doesn't it, that, that he finds himself paralleling through this journey. 

[00:13:14] From Egypt and all this sort of thing, but, but fascinating, even in the kind of narrative of. Inversion, if that's what you want to talk about it, we talked in the last episode about how w Greece is going to define righteousness slightly differently. Interesting that here Jesus goes to Egypt to escape and stay safe, the very place that normally you'd expect you need rescuing from. 

[00:13:38] So, there's a subtle commentary in almost into how bad things have gotten in Israel that, go back to Egypt for safety because Israel isn't the safe place anymore. But I do think it's interesting when you were, when you made those comments, I was thinking about, this kind of, texts within scripture about how Jesus has tested in every way. 

[00:13:56] And you think, goodness, it here, we even find Jesus who can align himself with the refugees, the displaced, the marginalized, because he's on beginning of his own life. And then of course, a huge challenge for us without trying to be overly political John, but a huge challenge for us is that, our views on refugees and immigrants and all that sort of thing, perhaps could be colored by this story because, because this is who Jesus was as well. 

[00:14:27] It's very, it's got some real depth to it for us to ponder. Hasn't it? 

[00:14:31] John: Well, it has, a at the heart of what we sometimes called the Christmas story. You have real darkness and tragedy. So we've reflected on Jesus being the light that would come in to the darkness, the darkness didn't understand it and comprehend it. And we, we love to interpret all of that stuff. 

[00:14:49] Very, very spiritually of spiritual darkness and spiritual light. But, but the light is also shining N a a, a season of history that is really dark and vicious and nasty. And. We're human rights and civil rights and even religious rights are being trampled on. And when you have a megalomaniac like Herod who even the Romans go, oh, we're not quite sure we like this guy all that much. 

[00:15:20] I mean, when he read the grid passes away his son, the, the sort of Israel in that sense that the Vedas amongst his, his sons and w one of his sons is so distasteful to the Romans that they remove him and put pilot in his place. Now, when the Romans are removing you, because you're not really that nice, I mean, you are seriously in trouble as far as a sense of humanity. Is concerned. So, so Jesus, the story of Jesus is magnificent. It's filled with hope. It's filled with life, It's filled with light, and yet there is a darkness to it here that the modules are right at the edge of they, they on mistakenly, they, they inadvertently open up this can of worms and wishing to worship Jesus. 

[00:16:14] They in inevitably put them in danger and they alert Herod to this moment that then creates this terrible knock on effect of both the destruction of children and the, the evacuation of Mary Joseph and Jesus don't to Egypt. So It's very, very. And it has something to say to us and our attitudes to the darkness in our world at high innocent people are suffering horrifically because of the madness of individuals and people around the world that forced  

[00:16:49] Onto the back of trucks and into boats to try and find a better life  

[00:16:54] David: And there's a story actually. I mean the whole nativity story speaks to. Some of the stuff that Jesus is going to do in his life, even in, in relation to the conversation we're having. I think about like Luke story, you don't have magi in Luke story. You have shepherds, but shepherds, shepherds are as close to you get to being outcasts from society without actually being outcast from society. 

[00:17:20] But we, we imagine shepherds and I think Jesus has rehabilitated the shepherd image. We've said this before in this podcast. Coming the angels coming to Shepherd's is a weird move, right? Unless you're attempting to communicate that the tables are being turned, that the people who were ignored or now, are now not to be it. 

[00:17:37] You're not going to be ignored in this new kingdom. And there's a level of that happening in Matthew chapter two as well, because there's definitely this sense that's going on here that, oh, by the way, there's a new king and it's not Herod. So, so the palace is not the place and it's beautiful. Even that image of the measure, they see this star, they figure out this means this, this new king is. 

[00:18:01] So then you kind of just, their, their GPS gets them so far. And then they basically just had to, they, they just had to, the king, that's probably where it's going to be. That's probably, we're going to find that out. And so I think there's something really powerful in that sense that where you expect to find the king is not where he is. 

[00:18:19] And I feel like, again, Matthew's intentionally navigating that. I love his connection to the prophetic text and this as well, chapter two, verse one, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem, in Judea. And then, and then heritage says like, well, wait a minute, where's this happening? And the responses in Bethlehem, in Judea, why do we keep seeing that? 

[00:18:37] Or because the prophet's written, Hey, you Bethlehem in the land of Judah, it's it. There's a beautiful kind of just repetition of, of the, kind of the prophetic texts, shaping the story there.  

[00:18:50] John: Beautiful.  

[00:18:50] David: But, yeah. So I think these, these characters of, of major provides some really interesting sort of contrast to us to understand how this Jesus story is coming about. 

[00:18:59] And of course, couple of things they're not Kings. So unfortunately is not, they're not, they're not Kings traditionally in terms of the biblical texts, they're they're magi.  

[00:19:07] John: sing that Christmas Carol  

[00:19:09] David: Well, it's a great song though. It's a great song. So you, maybe you should sing it anyway. And magi are actually, I mean, this is, this could be controversial because there are, they're probably closer to astrologers than they are Kings. 

[00:19:21] And I am in no way going to recommend anybody go out and start taking astrology seriously. But I find it fascinating. There's these little hints all the way through scripture, the guide occasionally is so total that we find him in unusual, in surprising ways. Don't we.  

[00:19:37] John: Yep, we do.  

[00:19:38] David: So they're not Kings and they may be astrologers and we don't know that there's three of them. 

[00:19:46] So, they, they bring three gifts, but these are pretty weighty gifts. So it's not impossible that they had a little bit of a, everybody threw some money in. But it's interesting that idea of these three Kings has, has really kind of solidified in our minds in the west. And, and you read the story and it just, I felt it was just worth pointed out. 

[00:20:04] Notice that none of that detail is there. 

[00:20:07] John: No, it's done that. And of course, for me reflecting back, because I just thought about it when you referenced the shepherds in Luke. And of course, what is beautiful here, though? These seem to be highly educated and wealthy man on the surface are wealthy people on the surface of it in comparison to the shepherds, what they are of course are Gentiles.  

[00:20:33] David: Yeah, 
 

[00:20:34] John: the shepherds are more than likely Jewish within that context. So, so you get a get indeed. So you get this beautiful. Not, not status reversal, but certainly tension here or juxtaposition here where you've got, you've got intelligent, highly educated Gentiles coming to faith in Jesus. 

[00:20:55] And you've got marginalized, Jewish people on the hillside being invaded to come to Jesus. And there is something quite beautiful about those ideas being put together for us that on that the Lord is able to speak to the level of a shepherd and enable them to find the child uneasy, able to speak into the world of an astrologer and lead them to the child. I do like the idea that the Lord is like multilingual. Easy. He can, he can do lots of communicating the lots of different people in lots of different ways. And we know that ultimately, and certainly the sort of the Christmas story, he wants to communicate Jesus to the world, but we must not restrict the Lord in how he communicates to his world and he can, he can speak to an astrologer. 

[00:22:01] He can speak to a shepherd, he can speak to every type of person And get their attention. And, and of course I think that's something really beautiful. That's at the heart of the, the, the Christmas story as it were. 

[00:22:14] David: of course these astrologers come from the east, but that's, it's brilliant how Matthew doesn't even make such a big deal of that. I wonder going back to what we talked about in the last episode, the genealogy, well, what Ruth comes from the east, right? So, so actually you're seeing, again, this holistic God is with us. 

[00:22:36] He is saving people and he's drawing people from all sorts of different places, but his Matthew with his genealogical intro saying, oh, and by the way, this isn't entirely new, your favorite king David while his grandma, she was from there too.  

[00:22:53] John: And, and maybe even a nudge, a nudge further on that, David is that the area they came from would have been an area of the world that historically the Jewish people were exiled into. So is it possible, is it possible. That they took the scriptures with them, that they went to Persia, that they went to Babylon that these are the areas being represented by these modules on maybe something of the magnificence of the story of God's salvation purposes gets relayed into an exile context and gets picked up in some way or another by these, by these modules. 

[00:23:48] That, that actually, this is not a random event. They're not just looking at stars in the sky, 

[00:23:53] but there's perhaps a connectedness 

[00:23:56] to stories that they have picked up. If these are men that are prepared to listen to all forms of wisdom and the by wisdom from all sorts of traditions, then maybe this idea that one we'll call. Who will see of the world, actually, maybe that, maybe that is also part of that post legacy might be a stretch too far, but a certainly think it's something worth considering.  

[00:24:26] David: I love the notion, in Jeremiah 29 where the Israelites, the other shirt, the people of God, her are told. To seek the welfare of the place where they are, to seek the Shalom of, of the, the peace, the wholeness of the place that they are. I love this idea that in the process of doing that, they leave behind their ideas, and so, like you say it it's in, it's in the silence, isn't it. But, but somehow these, these magi are expecting something that the, they knew it was coming, they've and of course, like you say, the huge elements of the, the messianic prophetic texts  

[00:25:06] John: Hmm.  
 

[00:25:06] David: are written by, in a displaced context in the, they're, they're away from home, they're in the east somewhere. 

[00:25:13] They're there. Yeah. So, no, I love, I love that. I love the possibility of that, John. I think that's kind of, that's kind of exciting. 

[00:25:20] John: Yeah, it's, it's just one lose. Cause cause of course they, they didn't just deposit and then leave again. But the evidence shows that not everyone returned after exile that actually 

[00:25:31] Jewish communities within the exhibit arena thrived, continue to thrive within that and unmarried. Maybe maybe, maybe out of the horror of the exile 

[00:25:42] comes something of a seed of hope, which these men eventually are the beneficiaries of. 

[00:25:47] So it's just a thought, that'd be a way of thought, but it's worth a consideration. I think,  

[00:25:52] David: I love it. Love it. 

[00:25:54] John: I think for me, one of the beautiful things, the Everett is a verse two. It's such a simple thing, really. But it. 

[00:26:00] is a striking thing and 

[00:26:02] it says, it just says whereas the one who has been born king of the Jews, we saw his star. 

[00:26:10] We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship Penman. And of course, we're not quite sure what, what they saw, but there's all sorts of conjectures and theories. 

[00:26:22] But when you think of the size of the universe, the thousands of stars that these men would have seen, I did a little bit of sort of, research on this and, and the, the, the reckon that the naked eye can see approximately 5,000 stars on a clear night. So if you've got no light pollution and it's no clothes and you look up, you're just the cost of your eye. 

[00:26:46] If you can see approximately, 5,000 stars are in your, I get with that, which is an incredible idea.  

[00:26:53] David: Hm. 
 

[00:26:53] John: and our, and our galaxy, the Milky way, there's an estimated 200 billion stars.  

[00:27:02] David: So we're not seeing many of them. 

[00:27:04] John: There's apparently a, and I don't know how they work this site, but greater brains than me will explain this, but they estimate there's a hundred billion galaxies. Right. And I, I, if my math is right, that's like 20,000 billion stars  

[00:27:22] in the known universe. Okay. Now what, however, these, these wonderful man saw the stars. They saw something extra ordinary. They saw something different. They saw something that stewed, oh no, no. We've had movies and, and all sorts of attempts creatively and artistically to sort of portray that. 

[00:27:46] But it must have been something that caught their attention in the midst of a universe of 20,000 billion stars to see that star And I know we can't sort of go be off, but I love their language. They didn't just say we saw a star,  

[00:28:07] but they said we saw his star. I love that. And it is that that's part of their epiphany moment. 

[00:28:17] I, I don't know it's but, but for me again, the Lord gets their retention through something they understand and, and draws them, draws them forth. I love that.  

[00:28:28] David: And then there is a connection back. In fact, I think you'll, you'll often see that if you look at the footnotes in your Bible, it actually takes you right back to the, the prophecy of, of bail him. Doesn't it? In numbers, 24 this idea of a star that comes out of Jacob and a scepter that rises out of, out of Israel. 

[00:28:47] So there's this connections again, this, you've got this idea of why have these magi been looking for a star, even what, what has been, and this sense that will actually, if you're rooted in the text of Torah, that's not completely far idea that something in the heavens will will point us towards the right. 

[00:29:09] John: That's beautiful. I love there's a beautiful 

[00:29:12] one of my favorite songs of some 19 

[00:29:14] for seven, the law of the Lord is perfect. Reviving the soul. It's part of my morning confessions when I'm reading the Bible. But the Psalm begins in this most magnificent way. Listen to these words, David, the heavens declare the glory of God. The skies proclaim the works of his hands. Day after day, they pour forth speech night after night, they reveal knowledge. They have no speech. They use no words, no shone does heard from them yet. Their voice goes out into all the earth and their words to the ends of the world. Now, I I'm going to use a better poetic license here, but I love the thought that not only do we understand this generically that we can stand, in our street or our back garden and look up and hear their voice, the voice of the stars as it goes out into all the earth. 

[00:30:05] But, but I love the idea poetically. I hope I'm not over cooking the tax that this star cold to them. This star spoke to them now, not in words, but this star speaks to them. It draws them. This star of Jacob is calling to these Gentiles. And here you have these Gentiles banned. So aware that some. Extra ordinary rate is going to happen that when a star starts to speak to them, that they are prepared to literally travel hundreds of miles, possibly even thousands of miles to get to. 

[00:30:49] I mean, it's, it's when you think about it, they're, they're leaving their homes, they're leaving their livelihood. They're leaving safety.  

[00:30:57] They're venturing into strange territory. They are man on a mission under SU consumed by the star, speaking to them that they're prepared to travel in relative terms halfway across the earth in order to face. 

[00:31:14] Where this star is landing. It's a magnificent idea that hungry. These men were hungry. These man were searching. They, we, we we've alluded to John haven't. We, he is, he came to a zone and they didn't recognize him. Here's here's man that are recognizing him or recognizing something that, that, and yet they're not, they're not as zoned. 

[00:31:40] It's just, I think it was a beautiful, and especially that common from Matthew, I would expect that the mojo story to be in Luke, gen Tad's rocking up with gifts, spotting Jesus eight. But to see Matthew include the idea of the merger, the Gentiles turning up because of his star. I think it's a beautiful, beautiful idea.  

[00:31:59] David: when you were talking about all of the. Galaxies in that ironically or unsurprisingly, perhaps? It was, it was some 19 one that came to my mind when you were talking there as well. And this might just be evidence that you and I spend too much time talking to each other that, that because, because funnily enough, like you talked about how important some 19 is to your kind of daily sort of readings in that for me some 1914 is, is is a daily meditation for you made these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight. 

[00:32:32] Lord, my rock and my Redeemer. I I talked for a living, right. And my vocation is all in that. And so I find myself praying to pray that daily to say, okay, I've, I've got a whole host of things I could say today may not all be pleasing. Right. So, so, but, but I too, it's interesting on in some 19, when I was listening to you talk a bit about there. 

[00:32:52] You've got this, this world, the surrounding culture where the worship of the, of the creation is very high worshiping the sun. God, you, you track it from all, the Egyptians, the, the Romans, the Greeks, the God of the sun is the great God. He's the, he's the one really in all of it. 

[00:33:13] And it's fascinating to me has some 19 in a world surrounded by worship of the sun and all of this last year will beings, including other aspects of creation. This Psalmist positions, the sun under the control of in the heavens. God has pitched a tent for the sun. Right. So I think that's interesting. I mean, it's, it's stunning poetry, but it offers a contrast to the surrounding. 

[00:33:43] Beliefs and cultures of the world. Right? So again, this is a steam we see all the way through scripture. The shepherds are the ones first invited. Now the people from the Easter coming to find the king, not the king himself. This is rooted in the biblical tradition to just be awkward, to actually did not fit in with your surrounding culture. 

[00:34:02] Very well. Everybody else worshiped the sun, God. And then you get these annoying little nation that's bugging all of the other nations around about them. They worship this God called Yahweh and they don't like our gods. And, and yet, not only did they worship oddly and not like our gods, they tell us that the things we believe our gods are actually just put into place by their God now. 

[00:34:28] So therefore then what the Psalm is, do. Is the having notice 80 where the sun fits in the whole process, they decide. And I think this is what you see it here. Look at it. So what was the, let's talk about what the sun does. Well, God gave it a tent and it comes out of its chamber and it goes out one side of the world running the other side of the world, warms everything up, does it circuit. 

[00:34:48] And then we're told that the law of the Lord is perfect, right? So the, the, the sun follows the love Lord. The sun points us to Jaqui. Right. So again, maybe I'm stretching it here a little bit, but that's exactly what we're seeing happening with this magi story, then that actually, they may be astrologers. 

[00:35:08] They may look. And this is perhaps the big problem with astrology is it assumes that the stars will give me the guidance I need for my life or these major I do is they realize the stars will guide us to the one who will give us the guidance. And, and that's a very subtle, but, but deeply biblical difference, I think is there that I think is quite stunning. 

[00:35:30] Wrestling a little bit, 

[00:35:31] John: And of course it's reflected in the Grecian story itself, David, isn't it? Where God, in the opening, his opening statement, let there be light, but the sun and the moon aren't created until day four in the creation story. So the light of the universe isn't coming from.  

[00:35:48] David: just like in revelation. 

[00:35:51] John: Exactly. So you get, the glory of the Lord is it's like, and the new Jerusalem and the alarm is its lump it's it's. So you, you are getting deep ideas here that,  

[00:36:02] David: Hmm,  
 

[00:36:02] John: And of course, the Torah itself expresses it forbids the worship of the stars because the stars themselves are pointing to the Lord, do not be enticed. 

[00:36:13] And deboned don't to them and worshiping things they'll dream says, or Deuteronomy says. So, so we, we are directed away from the stars as a point of worship, but directed towards the God who made the stars, let there be light. And then not just the next day, but, but three days later on the fourth day, God gets round to making the sun it's I'd create creating a tent for the sun. 

[00:36:37] That's just, it's just absolutely magnificent. And I think in the magic. We get this perfect circle completion. So I saw a beautiful cemetery and the story, David, I don't know if you've witnessed this before, but it says they saw the star and then it says they followed it. So, so there's a sense in which they've seen the star, his star under following the star. 

[00:37:02] And then later on in the text, it says there's verses 10 to 11 on calming to the hosts. They saw the child and they both don't and worshiped him. So they followed the star, but worshiped him. This is exactly the illusion you related to in Psalm 19. And I think our viewers will, our, our listeners will think we've, we've sort of planned all this and made all this up. 

[00:37:30] Let's just literally come together at our podcast together that, that actually the man-child pulled together, something of the creation mode. They pulled together. The idea that the sun in some 19 follows the law. And in fact, the sun has no existence without God's Torah, as it were God's truth. And then we have the magic eye here following the star his star. 

[00:37:58] But when they saw him, they bow down and worship that they didn't worship the star. They worship the one who created the star. And I love that. I I'm. So I mean, that for me is the epiphany moment. Yeah, Follow stars, but bow down and worship him. And I think that's the proper order that we should always understand that in. 

[00:38:23] David: Yeah, no, John, I'm so happy that you unpacked that because that's exactly what I was feeling forming. As we were chatting through this, it was just that, that, that Matthew, cause I was even looking at his precision of that sentence a little earlier on when we were talking and it's very deep. It's very precisely. 

[00:38:38] He came to the house, they saw the child, Mary was there, but then. At pains not to go back into the previous set of podcasts we did, but he's even at pains to point out that it's Jesus, that they worshiped, Mary is there, but Jesus is the one that they're worshiping. It's, it's, it's very much, he, he clarifies all of this. 

[00:38:58] So yeah, and I, and I just think that's, I can't help, but think Matthew's riffing on all of that. I can't help, but think that this is, this is what he's rooted in. And he's pointing out this story of these Eastern magi coming and finding the true king. It's the, the anointed one, which of course what this Messiah means. 

[00:39:19] Isn't it? The one who is anointed to be the king. And so they give him the, the, the open, their treasuries and and give him these beautiful gifts. It's just, it's a stunning moment. 

[00:39:31] John: That's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. And there's that strike in, again, that just as Joseph, we, we get the sort of the four dream sequence with Joseph. These guys are warned in a dream that, that, that dream motif and, and, and flow is very, very evident. Just as an in Luke, we get the sort of impact of the life of the spirit moving as, as an agent in that side of the story, we get these magnificent sort of dream and counters that they have, and it's a way of God speaking to them and, and sort of directing them in that David is, is it worth as we sort of probably draw. 

[00:40:13] This podcast, too. Occlusive worth us saying anything about the gifts of the magi, the gold, the frankincense, the mirror.  

[00:40:23] David: Well, yeah, I, I think it, I think it is there's cause there's stuff to say there. I mean, they opened their treasuries. I, I had never noticed this before John, until I was prepping for this podcast, but the Greek word for treasuries for their treasury boxes is, is they saw us,  

[00:40:42] John: Oh wow. There we  

[00:40:43] David: yeah. 
 

[00:40:43] Which I'd never really, kind of, engage that. That's what a thesaurus is a treasury of words. But so given that it's a treasury of words and we have things to say, we, we should, so, yeah, unpack. Cause there's a few little moments around those three gifts, I think are significant aren't they? 

[00:40:58] John: Well, yeah, I mean, obviously I think the three gifts have led into the idea that there are, there are three sort of people there, which may, may in fact affirm that idea. So it's not that we would want to fall ode on, but of course they? 

[00:41:13] isn't that interesting. The three gifts are distinct, they are unique. 

[00:41:17] There's no crossover. There does feel like an intentionality in these gifts that th th that these travelers, these mage, I thought about what they were bringing before. They actually brought them and, and I do sort of love this idea. That, that maybe, I suppose, in some ways the gold speaks of kingship, this, this idea that he is the king of the Jews and they bring gold to honor a king. 

[00:41:47] Would that be a fair idea to think about  

[00:41:50] within that?  

[00:41:51] David: I think so. 

[00:41:51] John: And then of course, you've got the sort of the frankincense, which was often sort of an incense permitted in the altar of worship. You can, you can fade that in Shabbat and Exodus within that. So there there's a sense of, of worship being offered. 

[00:42:07] And of course the mayor I hope I'm pronouncing that right. My Irish accent, but the mirror often relates to the part of the spaces that are connected to the burial of an individual as well. So you get. This gold, maybe relating to his kingship, this frankincense, a life of worship, a sweet smelling, savor a rumor being offered up to God. 

[00:42:32] And then you've got mayor perhaps pointing to something else that I, I don't want to overcook those, but, but of course I love the idea that when the Bible gives us that level of detail, you think, is there something in that detail that we should be paying attention to? And I think, I think those gifts may not only be gifts for the moment, but they may also speak prophetically into the life and ministry of Jesus. And of course at a practical level, they may also have helped the family survive. I mean, if you're going to run off to Egypt, of course, for two years, well, for a while, we don't know exactly how long, but if you're going to be a refugee in Egypt, you're going to need some collateral. Joseph May have got some work, but, but they're going to need something uncertainly. 

[00:43:18] We know that Mary and Joseph offered the poor offering at the temple when they brought Jesus to the temple. So, so the, the sort of the wealth that potentially could be within these gifts may have helped the family and our early struggles to survive those early struggles as well.  

[00:43:36] David: a couple of just cross-references to add there that may interest. People in essence, of course, frankincense as well is becomes in Jewish tradition, an incense that, that, without going into too much details, but an incense that becomes symbolic of the divine name. So you see that particular incense burn, in a, in a couple of contexts. 

[00:43:57] So, which I think is, is interesting that they bring an incest to, to Jesus. I think that's curious, but what really interests me is this, this tradition that the Jewish people would give wine mixed with myrrh, to people who are being crucified to try and essentially just get them very drunk so that they're not, kind of on board with what we're not aware really of what's happening. 

[00:44:25] So it's interesting that murder definitely pushes to the few of these funeral traditions, but also. Potentially there's a little bit of a reference to it. Crucifixion tradition as well. It might be hanging around and that he can't, make too much of that. And then, and then the photo would just cross reference, of course. 

[00:44:43] Is that in the what do you call it? The holy anointing oil in Exodus 30. There's more in there as well. So there, there's a few places. If you just do a little bit of cross referencing, you can see, okay. You know exactly. As you were saying, John, all of these gifts have prophetic depth to them potentially. 

[00:45:01] And it's hard to put your finger on weight. Definitely points to exactly this, but there's a lot of resonancies there. Aren't there 

[00:45:09] John: There 
 

[00:45:09] are, there are. And and again, if these are, I suppose it points, oh, I suppose what I'm trying to lean into there is if these men were looking for the star, if there was something in their world that were suggesting, some things calming under looking under prepared to travel halfway around the world, under prepared to bring intentionally and deliberately the sort of gifts they bring the knees aren't random gifts. There's there's something even in their gifts that speaks to their understanding of who Jesus is, which is potentially quite remarkable. If these are not simply, let's take some gold, that's it. But if these are gifts, representative of the understanding of these travelers, these Majay, it is quite remarkable. And maybe rightly it's called the epiphany in a rightly it's. It's harder to these men because, because they see something, they understand something they've grasped something so significant about who Jesus is that they're prepared to travel so far out their own expense and bring such expensive gifts and then bow down and worship Jesus. 

[00:46:27] It's the first, as far as I can see in Matthew, David, and I could be wrong, but as far as I can see in Matthew, and it's the first gen. Act of worship to Jesus. And I'm moved by that. I love that. I love, I love this, that, and this must've blown Joseph's mind. And Mary's mind as these travelers got off whatever beast they were traveling on, dusted themselves down and bowed down to the child. And I think symbolically those, my J represent every Gentile on earth. They, that those who are far away can see his star, that those who are searching confined and that those who are looking for the life of God that is contained within Jesus, the Messiah can also bow down and worship and see for themselves that he is the king. 

[00:47:28] So I love this. And I love the fact that it's part of our journey. 

[00:47:34] David: and all of this whole story then transpires, eventually Herod dies, but his basically his son ends up in charge. And so as a result, when the, when the family do return, they decide to set up camp in this little place called Nazareth. 

[00:47:53] John: That's the perfect hiding place.  

[00:47:56] David: Yep. Can anything good? Can let in Nazareth they say. 

[00:48:01] Outro: Okay. So that's the end of our episode today. We hope that you really enjoyed listening to these bonus episodes for Christmas. We hope that they've helped you just. Immerse yourself into the story of Christmas. A little bit more.  

[00:48:17] David: We'll be back in the new year, on the 10th of January, continuing our Acts series. But until then Have a Merry Christmas from us