Resilient Voices | Disruptive Presence 88

David Harvey: 0:05

Hi and welcome to the Two Texts podcast. I'm here with my co-host, john Andrews, and my name is David Harvey. This is a podcast of two friends from two different countries meeting every two weeks to talk about the Bible. Each week, we pick one text to talk about, which invariably leads us to talking about two texts and often many more. This season we're taking a long, slow journey through the book of Acts to explore how the first Christians encountered the disruptive presence of the Holy Spirit.

John Andrews: 0:40

Well, David, last time we reflected in our podcast of Paul Silas and the team hitting Thessalonica and how we saw this incredible declaration of Jesus Jesus as Messiah and Jesus as King was, in their words, upsetting or turning their world upside down, and my goodness, what a reflection that was. And my goodness, what a reflection that was. But, of course, what it's led to is a very fluid, controversial and also dangerous situation for the believers. So we sort of reflected on their experience in Berea, but it seems sorry, their experience in Thessalonica. But it seems their stay there is relatively a short one, At least three weeks, probably a bit longer, but they don't hang around there for very long.

David Harvey: 1:30

So, heading on into Berea because of the controversy in Thessalonica, and it's fascinating, actually, that they spend their at least three Sabbaths in Thessalonica, but then, once the trouble raises up, jason one of the crew that we don't really know much about he is bailed with the others. And then the reading for today we realize that they leave, they pack and leave that very night, which is quite. It's not quite the same. I was thinking about this. It's not quite the same as us deciding thinking about this. It's not quite the same as us deciding to leave. Let's just go tonight We'll catch a red-eye flight or we'll just jump in and we'll have a Red Bull and drive through the night, leaving that very night. I wonder if we're night time on an old Roman road and head out to Berea, which is where the text picks up that I'm going to read for us just now, isn't it?

John Andrews: 2:36

It is absolutely we're going to pick it up from verse 10 and read down to about verse 15. So are you okay to do that?

David Harvey: 2:43

Let's do it so. As it says, that very night the believers sent Paul and Silas off to Berea, and when they arrived they went to the Jewish synagogue. These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, including not a few Greek women and men of high standing. But when the Jews of Thessalonica learned that the word of God had been proclaimed by Paul and Berea as well, they came there too to stir up and incite the crowds. Then the believers immediately sent Paul away to the coast, but Silas and Timothy remained behind. Those who conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens and, after receiving instructions to have Silas and Timothy join him as soon as possible, they left him. It's a fascinating little story, isn't it?

John Andrews: 3:42

It is, it is. And again, if you're reading chapter 16 straight into 17, you are getting a little feel of pattern emerging, aren't you? They feel like very similar stories, even though they are different stories within that, and they have their own sort of epicenter and context within that own, their own sort of epicenter and context within that. But I, I, I, I, you, you, you are getting this sense of oh, this, this, this feels like the same sort of thing again, in the context of that it's.

David Harvey: 4:15

I mean you definitely get the sense that luke doesn't like thessalonica. It's like if we, if we, if luke was to write a travel guide, he would probably it would be one star. Do not recommend, he's not a fan. But I mean I thought that, as I was reading it as well, that it is actually. It's the Thessalonica story in Berea. So the same thing happens, despite. I mean, I almost interrupted myself when I was reading it.

David Harvey: 4:43

It's like they arrived in Berea and they went to the Jewish synagogue and there was almost this sarcastic comment I wanted to say, which was given, how well that went last time for them. Yes, yes, yes. But there's Luke's first point, isn't it? And actually it went quite well. That's what I mean when I joke around saying Luke doesn't like Thessalonica. He wants to make the point not just that these people were receptive. They were more receptive than in Thessalonica, which I think is connecting to. We're seeing this problem that's happening here and the response is the same, isn't it? They hear it well, and some leading people now lean in and trust the message of the gospel and that then irritates the people of Thessalonica.

David Harvey: 5:30

I mean, it's a really good observation from you, John, that there's connections between the two stories.

John Andrews: 5:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a number of lovely connectors. Where you've got in Thessalonica, you've got three Sabbaths actors. Where you've got in Thessalonica, you've got three Sabbaths. And in here you've got this sense that I love the phrase that the Jewish community there examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. So you really get a sense. Hold on a minute, this is resonating with us. That's really leaning in. So you're getting people in the Jewish community in Thessalonica accepting the word that Jesus is Messiah. Here in Berea they're digging into the text and after examining the text they're coming to the same conclusion.

John Andrews: 6:15

And then you get this lovely then extra bit about Greek men and women, but sort of prominent Greek women and men, but sort of prominent Greek women and men. And you get this again not just are Jews responding, but Gentiles are responding, and not just ordinary Gentiles, but prominent Gentiles, and not just ordinary prominent Gentiles but female prominent Gentiles. So this is now a pattern. We've got Lydia responding to the gospel an influential businesswoman and the first recorded European convert, in a sense and opening up her home. You've got, of course, the slave girl responding, and I know that's a slightly it's an outlier to this conversation, but again a female who is responding in some way to the kingdom of God or the gospel.

John Andrews: 7:05

And then you get the prominent women in Thessalonica responding. And now you're getting the prominent women, the prominent Greek women and men in Berea responding. And there is this gorgeous little subtext within this that we're not only getting Jews and Gentiles responding, but we're getting a response of prominent women in this, that we're not only getting Jews and Gentiles responding, but we're getting a response of prominent women in this context. And what all of that really means in a truly practical sense, I'm not sure, but it's significant that this is now the third mention, from 16 to 17, of women of prominence in the context of the gospel, and Luke sees fit to mention that to us, because it must be that those prominent women were positive influences for the gospel in those places, or else I don't think they would be mentioned in that way.

David Harvey: 8:02

Yes, I mean, luke definitely seems to be fascinated by status, like he. He it's, it's one of the kind of identifying features that he doesn't want to let go. It's like he. He speaks a lot through acts, doesn't he? And and even in luke, the gospel, you get this peak, and I mean, my take on it is he, and I've said this so many times.

David Harvey: 8:27

Forgive me if people are fed up on it, but I think this all is rooted in mary and zachariah's prophecies that there's a reordering of the world happening and and we talked about it in the last episode that even the, even the opponents are accusing of some level of disruption is happening here. The world is being disturbed, the world is being stood on its head. The mighty are being brought down from their thrones, as Mary prophesies. The prisoners are being released, as Zechariah prophesies. I think that it's not that Luke is just I don't think Luke's doing that thing that some of those terrible preachers we've seen that are given priority to the rich and the wealthy. I think he's pointing out look, things are changing, the prophecies are coming true.

David Harvey: 9:16

The people you did not expect, the people who actually the call, bear in mind in Acts, the call to the gospel is involved giving up a property and belongings. Gospel is involved giving up a property, property and belongings. So when people with lots of property and belongings start coming in and that starts happening, you see an economic and a social level. There's change. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's that's where I settle myself on. Why does luke keep mentioning this? I think it's it's because we're talking about societal disruption now and I think in luke's mind that that's always what Jesus is going to do. He's going to draw everyone into his kingdom, but his kingdom is different, as the sermon tells us that Jesus preached.

John Andrews: 9:58

Yeah, no, completely. I would totally affirm that and I think this is the benefit of us with a bit of a slow read through X is that we're able to sort of pick up the patterns a little bit. And I think that's definitely there. And again, I think it's lovely that the other little Lukean idea is he's just constantly nudging women into the story. So I think that's really and I mean even a casual reading of the Gospel of Luke and you've alluded to Mary's song, but of course, the fact that just Luke has Mary as a witness in terms of the birth narrative. Elizabeth is in the story. Anna the prophetess is in the story.

John Andrews: 10:42

We've got some really probably you know, the disciples of Luke, luke chapter 8, are in the story. Martha is a prominent figure in the story. Mary comes into the story, not Mary. The sister of Martha, joanna is mentioned in the story. We're starting to get now really influential and prominent women.

John Andrews: 11:00

And it's really interesting, david, that when you look at Luke chapter 8, for example, and this little thought about prominent women, let me just read this gorgeous little introduction to Luke, chapter 8. So in Luke chapter 7, you have the woman who anoints Jesus and Jesus defends that woman, and then we move into Luke, chapter 8, and Jesus says, or it says this in Luke, chapter 8, verse 1. Joanna, the wife of Chusa, the manager of Herod's household, susanna and many others, these women were helping to support them out of their own means. So in the Gospel of Luke you've got a real nudge. We've had a growing little trajectory.

John Andrews: 12:01

We're about to meet Martha in chapter 10 and Mary in chapter 10. We've got this increase of these influential women in the story and again in the context of the book of Acts, we've got this prominent women idea. And again I think Luke is not only interested in the power structures of its day, but he is sewing these beautiful, controversial or subversive that's a better word subversive ideas into the text in that, hey, prominent women, prominent women, prominent women, not just women, not just people, but women who are prominent. And I think again he's showing how the kingdom is drawing people in from the margins and repositioning them for influence through Jesus Christ, and I think that's worthy of note. I think.

David Harvey: 12:56

Well, I think that's, I mean, that is, the disruption of the ancient world. Women are ignored, marginalized, not given space, ignored, marginalized, not given space. And Luke has set Mary as the protagonist of his main prophetic announcement of the story, and that to me seems really really quite fascinating. And then we're seeing this story unfold beyond the life of jesus. And it's it, you're, I just agree with you so much that luke just will not miss an opportunity. It's as if the whole, the whole of the gospel and then act is him going. Look, look, look, pay attention, hey, look, that happened over there. Pay attention, look who it is, don't miss the name, don't miss the person, don't these are all these little moments of the gospel is working, that seed that's planted in the soil is fermenting and the shoots are coming up. And I think this statement many of them believed, including prominent women and not a few men.

John Andrews: 14:05

It's stunning. It is stunning and again, I know you love to take us to Galatians, but of course, even throughout the book of Acts we're seeing Jew and Greek, male and female. Especially Now there's some conversations around slave owners and slaves, but the big repeat pattern is Jew and Greek, male and female and we're getting that constantly played through the book of Acts in terms of this radical repositioning of people that have their certain positions in Roman society but, within the church, are being repositioned or potentially being repositioned for influence, which I love really.

David Harvey: 14:46

And then there's the contrast. So the similarities between the two stories are quite fascinating. You've got Paul and Silas announcing the gospel in a synagogue setting. We've got a group from Thessalonica causing problems with that. We've got prominent people coming to faith. We've got Paul being sent away as a result of it all. But what I really like is just the subtle but, I think, actually hugely significant contrast, which is verse 11.

David Harvey: 15:16

These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, and then we get the reason, for they welcomed the message eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. I mean at some level. I mean I've been reading as my kind of conversation partner throughout this series Willie Jennings' commentary and he says sometimes he really irritates me and offends me, which is a great commentary, and other times he says things and I think, oh, I wish I could say words like that. But he says this the people of God in Berea are in fact not that different from the people of God in Thessalonica. Their difference pivots on a simple desire they want to listen to what God is saying. And I thought what a lovely way to phrase it. There's two synagogues and the only difference that Luke actually gives us as to why do the Bereans behave differently than the Thessalonians? And the Thessalonians are unhappy and argue with them about the scriptures.

David Harvey: 16:19

Notice that, verse 2 of chapter 17,. Paul went in as was his custom and on three Sabbath days he argued with them from the scriptures. Three sabbath days, he argued with them from the scriptures. Yeah, verse 11. They welcomed the message eagerly and examined the scriptures every day, yeah, to see whether these things were so. I mean, it's a very subtle difference. But but and I I hadn't spotted it until the jennings drew my attention to it that that there's that luke presents the reaction to the message for both of both of them, and and that's where the difference is that there's an argumentative approach from one side and there's an examination approach from the other side. I mean, I don't know. I really found that maybe it's because you and I spend so much time examining scripture that I'm drawn to this, but I thought it was a beautiful little note to say look at how the story changes because of the perspective towards scripture.

John Andrews: 17:11

Yes, very good. No, I love that. I love that and that was one of the things that I picked up on was that beautiful phrase examining the scriptures every day. So, again, maybe that's a reference to the nobility of their character, that these are people that actually want the scripture to speak rather than their own context or personality to speak, so that the nobility of their reaction is well, let's see if the scriptures bear out what Paul is saying. If Paul is right, then Torah will affirm it. If Paul is wrong, then Torah will expose him. And so, actually, this very simple rationale of holding up Paul's claims that Jesus is Messiah to the scriptures themselves which Paul, of course, is preaching from that the very scriptures that they're examining is the very scriptures that Paul is teaching from, I think then allows for this breakthrough to take place, because he is appealing to the very scriptures that they believe and that, in turn, enables them to consider what Paul is saying from the very context of the things that they know and have read. So for me, that's a beautiful.

John Andrews: 18:31

I heard a little echo it's a stretch, really, david, but there's a little echo here in the Gospels that when Jesus was in his own hometown of Nazareth, he wasn't able to do much.

John Andrews: 18:46

In fact it says they took offense at him, and yet he goes down the road to Capernaum where probably, he eventually sets up his northern headquarters. And actually the records show that although there were some struggles in Capernaum, there were lots of miracles and there was general acceptance of Jesus in the Capernaum context. That's the place he keeps returning to because they've accepted him. And you've got two towns, villages, not really that far from each other, in fact, geographically similar distance between Berea and Thessalonica, that is, between Nazareth and Capernaum, but you're getting two completely different reactions to the same person, to the same scriptures, to the same claim. And I think, again, it reflects the openness of the heart to not just hear and reject, but hear and examine. Let's examine this, let's see what this really is, so that we can either refute it or accept it. And a beautiful contrast is there, geographically not that far apart, but in heart and in mentality and attitude, miles apart, miles apart, and therefore the gospel is received in a very different way.

David Harvey: 20:07

Yeah, I love that.

John Andrews: 20:08

These agitated people from Thessalonica travel all the way to Berea to agitate the people in Berea. So you've got such a strength. Whatever Paul and the team did in Thessalonica, it was of such agitation, such power, that they're prepared to travel all the way to Berea to stir up trouble against Paul and Silas. So you can see the depth of impact Paul has made, the depth of impact the gospel has made, because the level of agitation is so great that they're now hunting them down. They're not even leaving it alone. They're tracking them down into berea in order to stop them doing what they're doing. So it does show you that that sort of shows you both the condition of their hearts and and the level of impact that is going on and I think it's interesting, like I I love.

David Harvey: 21:05

I love the Greek of verse 11 when it says they examined like my translation in English says whether these things were. So the Greek? The Greek says to see if these were thus, and and I think that's at the root of the challenge is that there's, these things are being seen to be thus and this creates the threat. And Rowan Williams talks about how, when we approach scripture, that scripture is a gift to us and an invitation. He says this it's an invitation into a new world, seeing yourself afresh and more truthfully. So the Bereans, they see that these things are thus and they see themselves differently. But of course, you're then surrounded by people who don't want you to see the world that way, and it's amazing how committed we can become to ensuring that people don't see what we don't want them to see.

David Harvey: 22:07

There's a sort of double propaganda going on here. Paul's proclaiming a word, somebody else is proclaiming a word, and these things are heading into conflict with each other and Paul's safety is at threat then, isn't it? You see how we actually now have Paul, silas and Timothy. The band is broken up briefly so that they can extract each other into safe spaces. I mean, I was curious what you thought about even the fact that in thessalonica we end up with jason and the others being at threat. Here it definitely seems to be directly targeting paul, because paul gets sent to the coast, but Silas and Timothy it seems safe for them to stay in Berea yes, I noticed that.

John Andrews: 22:51

Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. And, of course, even in Thessalonica, the, the crowd is hunting Paul and Silas but can't find them. And now here in Berea, when that, when that sort of threat comes again, paul is encouraged to leave and leaving Silas and Timothy behind which, again, it seems to be that there seems to be a growing awareness that Paul is the one being targeted. So Paul is the teacher. That's hard to refute. Paul is the man who's the expert on the scriptures and it is interesting that perhaps he's being targeted because he is so good at opening up the scriptures, at presenting Jesus and at making a very, very strong argument that Jesus is Messiah. So it could be that we're getting a sense that he's being targeted for that very reason and therefore the believers make the decision let's get you out of here so that you are safe.

John Andrews: 23:57

They see, is it possible? Forgive this language. They're seeing Paul as a sort of a primary asset and they don't want Paul killed or destroyed. Paul needs to survive in order to help the church do what it needs to do. So, although Silas is important, timothy's important, it seems like at this point. The primacy that's terrible language, but the primacy of Paul. This amazing biblical asset needs to be protected at all costs.

David Harvey: 24:29

I think that's exactly the way it's being seen, even with your word primacy. I mean, we're naturally resisting the word primacy as a Christian statement about Paul and Silas, but I think that's exactly your point of how it's being perceived Paul and Silas. But I think that's exactly your point of how it's being perceived, because I wonder if Luke's intentional irony is there, as nobody sees Silas and Timothy as a threat, and the reason they don't see Silas and Timothy as a threat is related to them not really understanding how the gospel is working. It's not like he's left behind a couple of useless, useless partners that are not going to do a great deal of much, right?

David Harvey: 25:11

Yeah, I was even thinking about paul's instructions to timothy, like don't let anyone look down upon you because you're young, that that sort of notion. That that's exactly what's going on here. Timothy is not perceived as a threat, so he can stay behind. But paul's perspective is well, if they're behind, that's as good as me being here. I mean, I'm filling in the blanks there, john, but I get the feeling that that's exactly what paul would be thinking is that you're still in safe hands with these two left behind yeah, yeah, completely, completely.

John Andrews: 25:43

And there was a little it was funny thinking about. I was thinking about sort of Thessalonica and Berea together and how they they're almost like two parts of one story in some ways in terms of the similarity and connectedness to the church at Thessalonica. And he says something really interesting, david, he says for we wanted to come to you certainly I, paul did again and again but Satan blocked our way, satan hindered us or Satan cut in on us. I think it's just we read the sort of X story as it stands and it's like okay, paul and Silas do A, the crowd, the Jewish community, the Gentile community react and they end up having to move to Berea. But actually, when Paul gets a moment to reflect and thinks about Thessalonica and even though Luke seems a little bit squeamish about Thessalonica, paul something goes on in his relationship with that city and that Christian community that actually bonds to him and he not only thinks highly of them but speaks highly of them and he says I tried to come to you again and again but I was blocked or hindered or literally cut in on by Satan. And he doesn't explain that, he doesn't unpack that for us. Maybe he expects us to understand the story of the book of Acts and we'll put two and two together.

John Andrews: 27:18

But I think it's fascinating language that he sees this as Satan cutting in on the work of the gospel, satan blocking the work of the gospel. When you read the book of Acts it seems very pragmatic. They just go okay, go to the next place. Okay, you have to move, go, you have to move, go. And so you get a sense of oh, this is very matter of fact to these guys. But actually you can feel the pain of Paul here that, having been driven out of Thessalonica, he wanted to go back, longed to go back and was unable to go back because he felt blocked by that. Maybe he didn't want to put the Christian community under threat again, or maybe because, like we've just discussed, there was a serious price on his head that would put him and the Christian community at unnecessary risk. But I find it an interesting reflection of Paul on his experience at Thessalonica.

David Harvey: 28:15

And you see, paul's a teacher, isn't he? He's a pastor. He wants to ensure good roots, good solidity. To mention Galatians, paul's aware of what happens when you leave nascent churches without a fully good depth of understanding they become susceptible to. Galatians tells us exactly what we actually see happening here in this story, that there are people who are chasing Paul around trying to undo the ideas that he's expressing. So I think we're seeing Paul the pastor in that sort of language like I want you to come and navigate with you, and I think Paul also.

David Harvey: 28:59

You can see in the text that he's not leaving on his own terms. Neither Thessalonica or Berea are really what he wanted, and he obviously says that to your point that Satan prevented us from coming back. But he's even left. It's not really been how he's wanted to leave. He's leaving at night. He's been broken up from his team. Paul goes to the coast. I get this sense that I think Luke probably goes with him because of how he then narrates the athens story. So so I think that paul and luke perhaps are left alone in athens because there's a group take paul there, then they leave. But the next story, luke seems to be present too, doesn't he?

John Andrews: 29:40

so and and I love you, I love your little reflection if you contrast the way he leaves Thessalonica and the way he leaves Berea and the way he left Philippi, there is a little contrast. There isn't there. So in Philippi there is this little moment of resistance where they ask him, or they request him, to leave and he doesn't. He goes to the house of Lydia we don't know how long for, but he goes there to encourage the church and then he leaves. But in Thessalonica and here in Berea he's forced to leave and you do get the sense.

John Andrews: 30:12

This is just deeply dissatisfying, unsatisfying for Paul. He's agitated himself that he can't finish the work that he needs to do because of this group of people that are pursuing him and, of course, then ends up in Athens, and of course Athens is an interesting experience. There are some people who believe Paul is brilliant in Athens and some people believe Paul got slightly sidetracked in Athens and we're going to lean into a fascinating conversation. But he does find himself in Athens. After having to endure significant persecution and having to now run, as it were, from one port to another, he lands up in this magnificent, influential city and proclaims the good news, as it were, to them. So fascinating end to that X, x, 16 and 17 episodes.

David Harvey: 31:06

Yes, no, absolutely. I'm fascinated for the conversation we'll have in Athens. I love this story, john, I think. If I ponder it, I remember my father preaching on Athens when I was a little little kid, and it's actually the first sermon that I can cognitively remember parts of, if that makes sense. So this story is quite an interesting one, even just for me personally. But it's interesting if you just leaf ahead, notice this end of our conversation.

David Harvey: 31:37

In Berea, paul sent away to the coast. Silas and Timothy remained behind, and just have a leaf through listener and notice that Paul is in Corinth before he sees them again. And if you read the Corinth thing, I mean it's not evident that this is quickly After Paul left Athens. He goes to Corinth. This is chapter 18. He finds a Jew named Aquila and his wife Priscilla, and they've had to leave. In the exodus from Rome, when all the Jewish people had been kicked out of Rome, paul went to see them because he was of the same trade. He stayed with them and they worked together by trade. They were tent makers. So you get this impression that Paul might be breaking off. I'm curious your response on the spot in that sense. But Paul might now be not seeing silas and timothy for for a matter of of quite some time. Uh, again, it's quite significant, isn't it?

John Andrews: 32:32

it is significant and and that might I? I think I think those experiences, I think affect paul more than we know. I think. I think sometimes we look at paul and think, my goodness, type A personality, go-getter, this man, nothing affects him, nothing rumbles him, but these experiences having to leave the brothers and sisters, having to leave in a way he didn't want to leave, ending up in a place where he's distressed I mean, it's interesting when you walk into Acts 17, one of the first things, one of the first emotions Paul expresses or is expressed about Paul, is one of distress at what he sees and happens.

John Andrews: 33:09

So sometimes I think, david, we underestimate the sheer emotional strain.

John Andrews: 33:14

The man is under the psychological strain, the fact that he's carrying the burden of these churches, he's carrying the charge to the Gentile world and, yes, he is a remarkable man, he's a brilliant person, intellectual genius at one level, but he's also a human.

John Andrews: 33:32

And actually these things, you get a sense that sometimes the burden of these things get to him and he misses his friends and he actually does feel isolated and he does feel like Satan has blocked me and I don't really understand why I've been blocked from doing the things that I'm meant to do and you get these little insights does feel isolated and he does feel like Satan has blocked me and I don't really understand why I've been blocked from doing the things that I'm meant to do. And you get these little insights that, yes, although the story of X is one of overall triumph of the church, the cost to those carrying that triumph would have been difficult and high and costly, and I don't think we should ignore some of the personal, emotional, physical, psychological costs that Paul would have carried in order to proclaim the good news of Jesus.

David Harvey: 34:18

So that's it for this episode. We know that there's always more to explore and we encourage you to dive into the text and do that. If you liked this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you rated, reviewed or shared it. We also appreciate all of our listeners who financially support the show, sharing the weight of producing this podcast. If you'd like to support the show, visit twotextscom. But that is all for now. So until next time from John and I, goodbye.