Either Riot or Revival | Disruptive Presence 87

David Harvey: 0:05

Hi and welcome to the Two Texts podcast. I'm here with my co-host, john Andrews, and my name is David Harvey. This is a podcast of two friends from two different countries meeting every two weeks to talk about the Bible. Each week, we pick one text to talk about, which invariably leads us to talking about two texts, and often many more. This season we're taking a long, slow journey through the book of Acts to explore how the first Christians encountered the disruptive presence of the Holy Spirit. Well, john, some people were beginning to wonder if Acts 16 was the end of Acts and we're just going to be in Philippi forever. But I don't know if it's good news. I think I'm sad that we've moved on from Philippi, because I love that story so much, but today we're reaching chapter 17.

John Andrews: 0:59

Indeed, indeed, we have made it to another chapter and, like you, I thoroughly enjoyed chapter 16. I thought that was just an amazing conversation and, yeah, lovely, lovely depth to the whole thing, and could have easily stayed there a bit longer. But no, we must move on.

David Harvey: 1:17

We must move on, and we're moving into chapter 17, which is fabulous, of course people that have read ahead in Acts will read through chapter 17 and realize, oh my goodness, those boys are not going to get through this quickly.

John Andrews: 1:34

Absolutely yes. I glanced across chapter 17 last night just in a bit of prep reading for our podcast and thinking, yes, this could take a while, this could take a while, this could take a while.

David Harvey: 1:46

so absolutely yeah, so, as as always, the two text promises, it will take us longer than we expected. So, yes, yes, so no promise, okay so we're going to read chapter 17, verses 1 through 9.

John Andrews: 1:58

Yes, yes, I, I will do that. I would love to do that. So here we go with the last verse. Verse 40 of chapter 16 says then they left. And then verse 17 of chapter, or sorry, verse 1 of chapter 17 says when Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica where there was a Jewish synagogue. As was his custom, paul went into the synagogue and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the scriptures, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah, he said.

John Andrews: 2:45

Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women. But other Jews were jealous. So they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason's house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd, but when they did not find him, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials shouting these men, who have caused trouble all over the world, have now come here and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar's decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus. When they heard this, the crowd and the city officials were thrown into turmoil. Then they made Jason and the others post bond and they let them go.

David Harvey: 3:50

Wow, fascinating. It's like a very different story, but then also a very similar story. All at the same time. There's a pattern emerging. Yes, I was thinking Tom Wrightight, the new testament scholar and bishop. I remember hearing him once teach and he said that it was not lost on him that whenever paul went anywhere, there was either a revival or a riot, but wherever? But whenever he went anywhere, they just served tea and cakes I love that.

John Andrews: 4:22

I think I think I've heard that comment before somewhere. I love that.

David Harvey: 4:26

Revival or riot, and it seems to be, and sometimes both Indeed, indeed, so I mean so many interesting things that are going on in this particular tech. I'm curious where would you jump in on this, because I'm overwhelmed by options.

John Andrews: 4:44

Yeah, I mean, I think a very simple beginner, just to remind ourselves and our listeners, is the sheer mileage that paul and silas are covering here. So if you look at the, the journey that they travel from philippi to thessalonica, it's 94 miles, so it's 151 kilometers that they are their journey in here. So this is a serious, serious journey that they're moving along. And what's quite interesting is that if you look at the map that the big cities mentioned Philippi, amphipolis, apollonia and Thessalonica. Apollonia and Thessalonica they're all cities on the main east-west Roman highway and the Ignatian Way and this is a fairly significant, influential sort of route.

John Andrews: 5:37

So again, it's worthy of our note. This is not random. I think that Paul and Silas and the team there's an intentionality about what they are doing here which is really significant and we mustn't just think they left and thought, well, where shall we go? I think when you look at the map and look at where they're going and how they're going, there really does seem to be a sense of serious intention about the route that they're going there really does seem to be a sense of serious intention about the route that they're actually taking.

John Andrews: 6:08

And the other quite interesting thing around that, david, just as a little reflection, is that it starts to feel like Paul and Silas and the team are thinking about areas close to coastal dynamics.

John Andrews: 6:23

So if you follow the trajectory of this second missionary journey, there's a lot of cities on or close to the coast that they are now hitting and again, I don't think that's coincidental. I think you're starting to see the development of Paul and Silas and the team thinking about creation of regional centres, creating churches in significant cities that then become in themselves sort of fan out opportunities into the wider region. So it could be that Paul is thinking look, I haven't got time to go all to all these little small towns and cities in somewhere like Macedonia, but actually what I can do is hit the major centers and hope that those believers will fan out. And of course, we're heading towards Thessalonica and that's exactly what Paul says Thessalonica did. I mean Paul says when he writes to them, he says your faith in God has become known everywhere. So I think it's a stunning. I think, before you jump into the detail of what happened, where there's a definite sense, if you look at the map, there's a definite sense that, oh, there's a wee strategy here that seems to be developing.

David Harvey: 7:39

Whereas on their first missionary journey there was a lot of inland journeys, here it seems to be a more coastal focus which I think is a bigger regional strategy, and I wonder if that's where you feel there's a different tension here, that it's been building for a while. It's been alluded to in Philippi, but notice that I mean it's not lost on me All that you said. Thessalonica is this port city and so there's a lot of transit comes through the city. But if you were to look at this text and I realize in a podcast we're not always looking at the text, but I'd encourage someone, go and have a look at the text at some point Notice, in one half the text begins Paul is in the synagogue, right.

David Harvey: 8:28

So custom is being observed there. And here's the tension point in the synagogue, this is the Messiah, right. This is the Christos right. It's Jesus Christ that we're here talking to you about. So there's some tension. But then on the other end of the letter, of the letter of the verses sorry, on the other end of the verses we have verse seven. They're acting contrary to the decrees of the emperor and saying that there is another king named Jesus, right? So now we're talking about kurios, Lord Jesus in the Greek. So we've got this Christian confession of Lord Jesus Christ. And the lordship is a Caesar term, the Christ is drawing in some of the.

David Harvey: 9:16

So in this one passage we're seeing the gospel's tension with its Jewish community and we're seeing the gospel's tension within a greek community happening. But it's all happening in the same, in the same port city. At some level, like I think that's really quite. It's really quite interesting that it's that it's now getting to the point the gospel's causing riots from both sides. It's causing, it's causing problems for everybody. I think Paul's expected this, but Luke now brings it. It's coalescing into one space. If you hear what I'm scratching at there.

John Andrews: 9:53

Absolutely Very good. I think it's a fantastic observation and, of course, both centered on the person of Jesus. It's quite remarkable that this person, who has, at one level, come to bring peace and life and hope, is also bringing division and controversy, simply because of who he is, as both Messiah and King king. And we're already heading into this really paradoxical position with Jesus where, at one level, jesus is the saviour of the world and yet he can also be the stumbling block. He is both sort of the representation of the wisdom of God and yet this can seem like foolishness. He is the representation of the strength of God, and yet it can look like weakness.

John Andrews: 10:45

So we're getting this amazing sense of paradox now that actually the divisive issue coming more and more to the fore is not the practices of this new church or where they meet or how many buildings they have or what uniforms they wear, but the divisive issue is centered around the Jesus confession, and that you get this incredible paradox that the Jesus that this church presents can save people but also divide people and cause then polarization within community, and I think that's a fascinating observation. We tend to think that, oh, if we just present Jesus, then everything will be fine and, of course, potentially that is true, but Jesus is also a divisive figure and he continues to be an extremely divisive and polarizing figure all over the world. I think you could have many conversations with many people from all different persuasions and ideologies and isms around the world about many things. When you introduce Jesus into the conversation, it becomes a very divisive introduction because we're forced to decide what we think about this jesus where it is, and I think messiah and king represents that powerfully I mean, what a?

David Harvey: 12:21

it's an amazing observation, john, about paul explains from scripture that it's necessary for the messiah to suffer and rise from the dead. And then then here's the only actual verbatim sentence we get of that sermon yes, this is the messiah jesus who I'm proclaiming to you. So the statement to the statement in the synagogue is a statement about the identity of Jesus. And then at the other end, in verse seven, I mean the Greeks really, really gorgeous in this, because we get they are against the dogma of Caesar, and then they're sort of practicing a different king, saying it's Jesus. So again, it's the identity statement of Jesus as Messiah, it's the identity statement of Jesus as king. You're so right, and it's just an amazing observation. I don't want it to let it slip past us. The identity of Jesus is what's causing the problem, first and foremost, and, my goodness, that's a, that's a message for us, isn't it so?

John Andrews: 13:29

well it is. It's funny like I I was. I was reflecting sort of recently, so if I could just flick it up just on. On first corinthians, where, where paul says these just amazing, amazing words, I'm just saying, put my hand on it.

John Andrews: 13:43

But Paul talking about the cross, he says For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. So you've got this introduction to this sort of paradoxical position perishing and power. And then he goes on to say this verse 22,. Quite amazing really. In this context he says Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.

John Andrews: 14:13

But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. And it's interesting Paul's language there. But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, Messiah, Messiah, the power of God and the wisdom of God. So there's that sense in which Paul understands the controversy, yes, Around the person of Jesus, but the paradoxical situation is that actually, it's this person of Jesus on the cross and, by implication, the resurrection. That is the thing that's going to save people at the same time. So you get this saviour stumbling block dynamic.

David Harvey: 15:08

Yes.

John Andrews: 15:09

That certainly resonates in the teaching of Paul and certainly seems to be a pattern now in the book of Acts.

David Harvey: 15:17

Yes, no, definitely, definitely, and it strikes me there's multiple things to draw from that. The gospel is the gospel of Jesus is one thing that comes to my mind when I think of these texts. So let's not hide that right, or let's not obscure that. Perhaps might even be a better term. What is it to be a Christian? To be a Christian is to make a statement about Jesus, fundamentally, and so should we. Let me ask this as a question, although I have my own thoughts on it, as you might well imagine. But should we present Christianity as simply a way of life, or is it? Oh, it's just about.

David Harvey: 15:57

I hear this quite regularly. People say, well, christianity is just like all religions, just about being good and kind and loving one another, and actually what you see here is that no, actually, christianity is a statement about Jesus and everything else cascades down. Your behavior will be affected by your statement about Jesus and everything else cascades down. Your behavior will be affected by your statement about Jesus, and the statement Caesar is Lord affects your behavior just as much as a statement that Jesus is Lord is. And I mean, I've wondered about this for a long time, john and I've ended up not being in the country when it happened.

David Harvey: 16:33

But for many, many years of my childhood we would sing songs in church about King Jesus and in my kind of maturing years I found myself one day standing in church and thinking I wonder how these songs are going to sound when the queen dies.

David Harvey: 16:53

And I realized forgive me, north american, uh, listeners, a very british conversation for a second but that that that at some point the queen's going to die and our national anthem will become god save the king, and the king will call british people to do particular things, including and not and not exclusively to going to wars on the behalf of the name of the king.

David Harvey: 17:17

And it struck me then and I'm curious to watch how it unfolds that we as Christians will then be faced with something which has always been true but we've been able to avoid because we have a queen that kingship demands a decision from a person and I'm not trying to promote an anarchy here, hear me well when I'm saying that because president and prime minister demands the same decisions. But there's a sort of stark notion now, as British people, that the language of King Jesus is not the only place that we now encounter the language of kingship. And I'm just I mean, I don't even know if I'm wanting to push this point too hard, but it does draw the contrast that we're seeing happening here in verse 7 of Acts 17. They're acting contrary to the decrees by claiming there's another king named Jesus. Do you hear what I'm kind of playing with there, john?

John Andrews: 18:12

Totally. And again, I think it represents another profound, paradoxical position of the gospel, in that, at one respect, followers of Jesus are called, within the context of the New Testament, to be good citizens of the world in which they find themselves in, and of course, for the majority of the letters in the New Testament, that citizenship is under the banner of the Roman Empire. But of course, paradoxically, the Christian community is on a collision course with that empire, because the person at the top of that empire not only sees himself as king but as god. And now a christian community and of course a jewish worldview would would, I would agree with this, with perhaps the exception of jesus messiah. But the judeo-christian worldview would broadly go hold on a minute, we only have one god and that is the god, that is the lord god. Yes, and so you've got that clash. But then of course, the language of king puts almost the church in the sort of political crosshairs of the roman empire to sort of say hold on, is this a, is this a sort of a fifth column within our nation? Is this a group of people who are going to undermine Rome? Ironically, of course, the true church of Jesus Christ will never undermine a society but enrich it. But of course it does the enriching because it has its allegiance with another king. So this is a huge paradox.

John Andrews: 19:53

I am a citizen of the United Kingdom, I have a United Kingdom passport and I'm very honored and privileged to have such a citizenship. But as a follower of Jesus, my primary loyalty is to the king of the universe. Blessed are you, lord, our God, king of the universe, and so he gets my primary loyalty Most times. Those two things are relatively compatible, yes, but there are occasions, and I would say even in my lifetime, growing occasions, when there is an incompatibility between what a earthly king is demanding of me and what my heavenly king is asking of me.

John Andrews: 20:41

I think for the early church that paradox is dynamically strong. Right from the beginning, me and you I mean certainly in the way my upbringing I've had to sort of grow into that paradox because rarely has my allegiance to Jesus been challenged within the context of my British citizenship. But the early church was baptized into that controversy. They were surrounded by a Jewish worldview that did not accept Jesus, messiah. They're now surrounded by a Roman worldview that has Caesar as king. These people, I mean this is normal for them. They're living with a paradox that can potentially explode in their face at a persecution level at any moment. Hence the increased pattern of persecution and suffering for people like Paul and Silas and his team as they go that make sense.

David Harvey: 21:35

Yes, no, absolutely, absolutely. And I think what texts like this do for us as modern people is just call us to alertness, call us to the moments. I mean, it struck me King Charles chose one of Malcolm Gita's poems for his first Christmas service not this year but the year before where one of the points of Gita's poem makes the statement that all kings will be held to account because of Jesus, which I thought was fascinating that King Charles chose that particular text. So I thought, okay, he's at least holding some awareness of this. But the thing that struck me was at points of wartime, for example, when when kings and presidents call people to take the lives of others is where we now start to find these points of tensions. Or when kings or presidents call us to behave badly towards the widow, the orphan and the alien, for example.

David Harvey: 22:36

These are the moments where I think we do need to stay on guard to okay, what is happening there. But I think it's fascinating in this particular text that we're reading as well how? Just let me add a third sentence to the two sentences we've got on play so far, so that jesus is the messiah. There's the first controversial statement, apparently. Then the second one is that there's another king named jesus. But then this is verse six sentence these people who have been turning the world upside down.

David Harvey: 23:12

I mean, what a statement. It's a huge statement, isn't it?

John Andrews: 23:21

Yeah, upsetting the world, upsetting the world. And again I think so. I'm just looking at my Greek text, the idea having upset the world.

David Harvey: 23:34

Yes.

John Andrews: 23:35

I like the translation of turning it upside down, but in the context of our conversation, I think that translation upsetting the world or having upset the world is even more dramatic, because that's exactly what they're doing. They are upsetting the world. And this again we're back to this paradox. Hold on, these are people that are going to bring peace and joy and life and hope in Jesus, but actually, ironically, they're also upsetting the world. They're bringing that into it. We've seen it in Philippi, my goodness, they upset that into. We've seen it in Philippi, my goodness. They upset that world.

John Andrews: 24:14

And our big theme of the book of Acts is this whole disrupting presence of the Holy Spirit. And now we see this sort of disrupting, upsetting nature of the person of Jesus. That when Jesus enters into a community, he will potentially transform that community for the good, but he also upsets it. He's going to turn over some stones, he's going to rattle some cages, and people and strongholds, ideas, ideologies, behaviors and practices are not necessarily going to enjoy that upsettingness. So I think, think that that little greek translation is a wee bit stronger and better for me. They're upsetting the world rather than turning it upside down, because because the the turning the upside down feels like really positive revolution, whereas upsetting, feels like oh, oh, hold on a minute, you've really got under my skin and I don't like that so much, and I think that's actually part of what's happening with the gospel here.

David Harvey: 25:13

Yeah, yeah, no, I hear that. I mean, the Anastasiosantis is the Greek, is literally at some level, there is a sense of it being stood on its head. I think that's why we end up with the turning the world upside down. But the notion is agitation, subversion. Is agitation, subversion, overthrowing? It's definitely. It's being voiced as a negative by the people who are saying it. I think the latest edition of the NIV has it.

David Harvey: 25:41

These men have caused trouble and so you're definitely seeing this. I mean, I thought it's interesting that the language of world is not the earth in terms of the globe that's being thought about. It's the established order of the kingdoms, so it's kumene is the greek word. It's the same. When, when, when the satan takes jesus up and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, it's the economic many that he shows him, it's the, it's the, it's the, the the, it's the economy, it's the structured stuff, it's the developed stuff they're not talking about. What has this done to the trees and the fields? They're talking to this. What has this done to the stuff we've built, the stuff that we've developed, which is to your point? It's being upset, right, it's being agitated, it's being turned around. So I think it's quite a. It's quite a graphic image they play. It's a all the stuff that we are trying to do. These people are making a mess of it. Yeah, I don't know if that, if that sort of captures at some level what you're wrestling with.

John Andrews: 26:45

Yeah, well, no, I I think that's absolutely right. And and again, I I think. Sorry, I know I've used this phrase a lot, but I think it's the paradoxical dynamic of the kingdom that we've got something that, like Jesus says, will be yeast working through the dough that will bring life and hope to the broken, but also it has I was going to say a nasty habit. That's the wrong phrase, but it has a habit of also disrupting and upsetting and annoying and agitating the world. The establishment around certain places where the kingdom of God will work and I love this idea.

John Andrews: 27:36

But of course the potential cost to the Christian community, the potential cost to people of faith when the gospel agitates the world in which it's in, is potentially high. And we've seen that already in Philippi. We're seeing it now with Jason and the other believers. They literally are getting dragged out into the street and into the problem on this, because the community is so agitated that they're now resorting to some measure of violence or some measure of at least targeted abuse of these followers of Jesus. So it is a serious agitation and agitation is provoking people to action. You and I can be agitated because we're sitting in a traffic jam, but we sit there and just get through it. But when you're agitated to the point where you get out of your car and start smashing other people's cars up, then that's a different level of agitation entirely, and I think this is a deep level of agitation that's going on because of the gospel.

David Harvey: 28:41

It's. I mean, it's quite something You've even got you've even got these that this time the people themselves are being drawn into the agitation as well. So, like I was noticing this little subtlety that we have Paul and Silas in Philippi, they get in trouble and it's Paul and Silas. It seems that Lydia and her party are all kind of safely just at home, whereas now we've got so much more going on because because it's like they were out searching for Paul and Silas to bring them out of the assembly they attacked Jason's house. So now the Christians themselves are being drawn into this. They can't find Paul and Silas, so they drag Jason and some believers before the city authorities. By the way, we don't know who Jason is.

David Harvey: 29:32

So Luke obviously thinks that we know who Jason is. But just in case you're reading this, listeners and thinking, oh and Jason entered the story. John and I are in the same place as you. Luke thinks we know Jason, but we don't know Jason. Is that fair to say?

John Andrews: 29:48

That's absolutely fair to say. Yes, I was hoping you were going to put out some magic rabbit out of the hat there, david, and tell us who Jason was. But yes, I am as perplexed, or at least non-plussed, as you are. We just accept this person is a follower of jesus and the christian community seems to be meeting in his house.

David Harvey: 30:07

So, yeah, yes now the only thing, the only other reference but your guess is as good as anybody else's in romans 16 that paul lists a jason as somebody who is a fellow Jew. So in Romans 16, he talks about Timothy, sends his greetings to you, timothy is his co-worker, and then he lists Lucius, jason and Sosipater, my fellow Jews. So there's a lot of people think, okay, maybe this is the same Jason. I'm persuaded by that. I mean, it doesn't help us, that's. All that we know about him is that he becomes a fellow Jew and Christian with Paul. My guess is that that's the case because Luke seems to think this person is known amongst the communities that he's writing to. So no introduction like oh, it's jason, that's where jason comes from. Unfortunately, it leaves us as modern readers a little lost, because all we know about jason is he is he got dragged before the authorities?

John Andrews: 31:11

indeed, indeed indeed, no, no, it's fascinating and and I again, I love, I love the fact this name's just dropped in and there's a sense in which now we're seeing we don't know nothing, we don't really know anything seriously about this man other than he's the father of Jesus. But I love this idea that when you're combining chapters 16 and 17 together, we're just getting names dropped in there. We're getting this lovely humanization of the gospel. This gospel isn't just like reaching the Jews and it's not just reaching the Greeks and it's not just reaching the Romans, but we've got Lydia mentioned and we've got now Jason mentioned and although the name of the jailer isn't given to us, he's personalized in that story, in that context, and you're getting a sense of now that it feels like the gospel is reaching and touching the ordinary people, the everyday people of this, of this society, and they are engaging with us. So I do like the fact it's just dropped in and we go okay, jason, fair enough, that's fine, I mean there's also.

David Harvey: 32:15

I mean he, as you might imagine, engenders a space within church tradition. So he's considered church now not talking, scriptural tradition now listeners, but church tradition holds that he eventually goes on and becomes the sort of person that takes the gospel to the island of Corfu. So if you're ever in Europe and on your holiday in Corfu, you'll encounter a lot of Jason imagery in Christianity because of exactly that tradition. But the New Testament literally gives us this story and possibly mention of him across there in verse 16.

David Harvey: 32:53

But I also kind of like it, john, because it's like these are real people and it's real stories and Luke isn't writing this text just for random anybody. He kind of knows the people that are hearing this text so clearly feels oh, jason was there, by the way, and I think that to me, there's the part of it frustrates me because I want to know more. But actually there's a humanness to the text here that I think is an important confession when we read scripture, that this text just didn't magic from somewhere that a man named Luke did. And he tells us this researched, interviewed, traveled, and this is the story that comes from it and I really love that about it.

John Andrews: 33:39

So do I, so do I. I absolutely love that. And then the most positive side there's a beautiful reflection on that that we're getting this gorgeous humanisation of the gospel. I think the other side, of course, is that it reflects on that.

John Andrews: 33:53

Here's a group of Christians suffering because of what other Christians have done. And it's remarkable, isn't it, that Paul and Silas have come in. They've been accused of some stuff over at least a three-week period, probably longer. We've got three Sabbaths here, but there's no doubt they stayed much longer than that in the context and Paul and Silas and the team have brought such an influence that actually now there's a wider repercussion on the Christian community. And yet they stand together.

John Andrews: 34:24

There's a solidarity in the suffering, there's an identification with that suffering and there's an acceptance of that suffering, even though they aren't the ones that the crowd is specifically after. But you get this lovely sense of solidarity and togetherness and acceptance, as well as the introduction of these beautiful individuals. So I think there's a sort of a wider conversation there in terms of the Church of Jesus Christ standing together for these issues and sometimes suffering because not necessarily because of what they have done, but because of what the gospel represents and how it is being presented, even in different ways by different people. So again, there's a lovely insight I think into that.

David Harvey: 35:16

The whole. I mean this is one of those texts that the more and more that we kind of the whole, I mean this is one of those texts that the more and more that we kind of pick and poke at it, there's so much resonance with it. I was even thinking about how there's a little subtlety in the text, just as we're maybe bringing this episode to end. That it's when I was thinking that Paul so look, some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women. And I was thinking about your comment about this is why are we disturbed? What's disturbing us? What's standing this on its head from our perspective, to use all those terms? And of course it's because it's having impact in and amongst the powerful. So it was kind of fine when it was just the sort of lepers and the homeless that were following Jesus around, but now people with influence are actually buying into this and now it becomes a problem, and so you see society trying to preserve itself from its perceived threats, and even that's a remarkable challenge for us, isn't it that we have the gospel's impact gets complex, actually, at various points it creates complexities, and I wonder if it's worth us pondering as listeners. Why is it, when the people in authority start listening to the gospel, that the systems start to get worried? Right, and what does that say about the systems that they somehow know this won't necessarily be good for us if Christianity reaches in these spaces In the same way for the Roman jailer, he had to deal with the fact that becoming a Christian meant he couldn't really be a jailer anymore.

David Harvey: 37:06

And Matthew has to leave his tax collecting. Judas has to although fails perhaps leave some of his ways of thinking. The gospel is inviting us to change and I wonder why. Maybe this is the question I'm trying to phrase. Why is it that in the contemporary world, we don't seem to see the oh, my goodness, this is the end of the society, and it's that because Christianity's lost some of its world upside down world disturbing tendencies, and I mean that again, not with anarchy, because I see far too many Christians banging around about the wrong things in the name of Jesus and, as a result, also a little too quiet on some of the other things that Jesus calls us to. I don't know if that makes sense, john.

John Andrews: 38:07

It does.

John Andrews: 38:08

And my little reflection back would be, of course, it's when people of prominence truly encounter Jesus and Jesus then leads to change of behavior and lifestyle and belief system.

John Andrews: 38:24

That's what's going to start upsetting the system.

John Andrews: 38:27

So if you're in a system, for example in the first century world, that would accept corruption as a way of life, accept bribery as a way of life, accept certain treatment of certain people in certain way as a way of life, accept certain treatment of certain people in a certain way as a way of life, and then suddenly you become a Jesus follower and those options are now being challenged and you are now, as a politician or as a prominent woman or as a business person, trying to operate your business without the sort of normal shenanigans and practices that were part and parcel of your world, that's going to start bringing upset and if enough of you start doing that, then it literally does start to tip the balances.

John Andrews: 39:11

So I think it's not just prominent people per se, but it's prominent people absolutely getting Jesus and then starting to go hold on, hold on a minute. We can't do this this way anymore and that's when I think dynamic, fundamental and even systemic upset starts to take place in the context of our world. I think we can see that on our grassroots level, but I think when the gospel reaches into the corridors of power and truly reaches there, it will demand that we cannot live the same way as we have lived before and therefore, by very definition, will upset the world in which it is situated.

David Harvey: 39:56

Riots and revivals and generally. Come on both. Come on so that. Come on, both, come on. So that's it for this episode. We know that there's always more to explore and we encourage you to dive into the text and do that. If you liked this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you rated, reviewed or shared it. We also appreciate all of our listeners who financially support the show, sharing the weight of producing this podcast. If you'd like to support the show, visit 2textscom. But that is all for now. So until next time from John and I, goodbye.