Open Hearts in Philippi | Disruptive Presence 81

David Harvey: 0:05

Hi and welcome to the Two Texts podcast. I'm here with my co-host, john Andrews, and my name is David Harvey. This is a podcast of two friends from two different countries meeting every two weeks to talk about the Bible. Each week, we pick one text to talk about, which invariably leads us to talking about two texts, and often many more. This season we're taking a long, slow journey through the book of Acts to explore how the first Christians encountered the disruptive presence of the Holy Spirit. Hello, john, it's good to be back with you. And in Acts 16, still Well, I say still. We're only a few verses into it, aren't we? But we may be in it for a little bit longer.

John Andrews: 0:49

Yeah, what a chapter. This thing just gets better and better. We thought that staying in chapter 15 was such a huge, pivotal moment in the story of the book of Acts, but, my goodness, there's been a glorious and magnificent shift of gear in chapter 16, and it feels like, after the conversation around trying to go to Bethany, trying to go to Asia Minor Holy Spirit stopping. It feels like okay, now that they've reached a point where God can get their attention, this thing starts to move again very, very quickly. It's just beautiful and you see those ebbs and flows. We have the benefit of sitting back and seeing it in gorgeous panoramic detail, but of course they're living it. But you see that ebbing flow. It tried to go somewhere, got stopped, tried to go again, got stopped, and then they sit and throw us in wait and then the Holy Spirit reveals why, in fact, he stopped them going where they wanted to go. So it's just beautiful. It's just the gorgeous ebbing flow of our own journey and our own spirituality. It's really beautiful.

David Harvey: 1:52

The narrative time of Acts really interests me on that point as well how there are these fast-paced moments where whole journeys are being summarized in half sentences things that we've talked about in other episodes of how long some of these journeys would take and so the narrative time becomes almost warp speed, how fast we're moving through things. And then there are times where the narrative of the whole story slows down to almost real time, where you're hearing word for word conversations of what happened, and chapter 15 seems to be one of those. This is running at real time, as long as it takes you to read this sentence. This is how long that took. And then now we're moving into this chapter 16, which is very much a lot of speeding up and slowing down and speeding up and slowing down, which I think adds to the drama that I think Luke wants us to capture of the way the spirit's just moving and disrupting and changing. And we're jumping in then to verse 11 to 15. Today aren't we to talk about?

John Andrews: 2:57

it. Yes, indeed An amazing moment arriving at a new city and then an incredible moment of opportunity. Gorgeous pictures here of opening, things opening, which is a bit of a Luke theme. He loves the idea of things being opened. And I want to say, a couple of things being opened now, so it's brilliant absolutely beautiful.

David Harvey: 3:19

And having come from previous episodes where we've talked about things that the spirit is closing, we now begin to perhaps understand why things are closing. And also, I think we're getting to a point in Acts where perhaps people will start to feel familiar with some of these stories. These are stories that you've probably picked up. If you've grown up in church, you've heard them in Sunday school. If you've been in a Bible study, you've probably encountered some of these stories. So I'm going to read from verse 11 of chapter 16 through verse 15, and that'll get us started on our conversation for this episode.

David Harvey: 3:54

So we set sail from Troas and took a straight course to Samothraeus the following day, to Neapolis and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city for some days. On the Sabbath day we went outside the gate by the river, where we were supposed that there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the woman who had gathered there. A certain woman named Lydia and a worshiper of God was listening to us. She was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul when she and her household were baptized. She urged us, saying if you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come and stay at my home, and she prevailed upon us.

John Andrews: 4:52

Beautiful, gorgeous, Absolutely gorgeous. And of course we, just right before they sail from Troas, we get this gorgeous sort of statement in the previous verses. They have this vision of the man standing begging, begging them come over to Macedonia and help us. And I love the conclusion. Just before we get to the sailing moment, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them. So we've had this chat about the Holy Spirit blocking doors, stopping doors, stopping them to go to Asia Minor, stopping them to get into Bethany, and yet here's a bold confidence statement.

John Andrews: 5:37

Actually, we concluded God was calling us to preach the gospel and it must have filled them with amazing I mean, you don't think of Paul as lacking confidence, but it must have filled them with a great sense of confidence as they cross over into Philippi and they know that they have to be there. I mean, there's a sense in which the gospel goes everywhere, the good news of Jesus can go everywhere and anywhere. But, of course, if you add to it this sense, oh, we really think we have to really be here because of everything that's happened before, not just the incredible moments where we've seen this vision and we're following it, but also the no's. I think the no adds power to the yes and you get this beautiful sense of wow, we really, really should be here. And that must have given them an extra sense of oh, the Lord's going to do something or this is this feels like we're on with something here and it feels quite, quite special. Does that sort of resonate with you?

David Harvey: 6:43

Yeah, it's funny. As I was reading it it struck me again the foreignness of these words and like if you were to have and I'm not always sure this is the best way to read the Bible for the first time, but if you'd gained some familiarity in the Bible and had just started at the beginning and we're reading through, right, and I don't mean that to poo poo any attempts to read the Bible from start to finish, I think it's a great thing to do. I'm not always sure it's the best thing to do if it's the first time you come to the Bible, but were you to have done that, you've spent many, many books reading what to you as a Westerner are very unfamiliar sounding places, right. But if you really lived in it they'll start to sound familiar. So you're going to places like Jerusalem, right, and Bethlehem, and you get into the gospel and this sort of says the same. And it struck me, as you're getting to this point in the story, particularly Troas, samothrace, neapolis, philippi none of these are Jewish sounding names, right. So that experience that you and I get when we go on vacation somewhere else where all of a sudden you're like man, these towns have got really interesting names, you might say, or because they land on you differently, because when you're in Calgary, alberta or in England, our names come from a particular way of sounding and it's actually as you're driving along the road you and I have both done this you're driving along the road in a country that's not your home country and you are struck by all the road signs looking very different because of the names they're announcing.

David Harvey: 8:32

And I think I mean, maybe I'm over making a point that's not there to be made, but this little passage, I feel that from Luke, like we're in strange territory, places that sound like Jerusalem and Bethlehem are not happening anymore. So it struck me literally as I was reading it. This really small party, right, like just a couple of folks we don't really know exactly how many the we is that we're dealing with here. So at best we can figure it's Paul, timothy and Luke, right? I mean, is it possible, john, that that is literally the three of them and they're now in completely foreign territory where everything seems different to them all, because they have become convinced that God has called them there. Yeah, it's beautiful. I think Luke's making that point on purpose because he's going out of his way to name places for us here, isn't he? We don't actually need to know that they went through Samothrace in theapolis, but what it does add to the narrative for us is my goodness, these boys are far from home. I'm over egging it perhaps, but do you feel that?

John Andrews: 9:47

Oh no, I think it does add to the drama of the text. If we sort of follow the story and, of course, if our listeners also have a map of the journeys of Paul and the team sort of alongside them when they're doing that, you really do feel like you're crossing over into new territory Because, as you look at that, you're crossing over into a whole new region that is represented, a whole new challenge and the whole context of that. As they cross the sea and land on, I suppose, what we would call today the mainland of Europe, there's a sense in which they're arriving in new territory. So I love that and I did spot and I hope our listeners heard that as well the wee in there, dr Luke, drops that in, so you've probably got the only other person I thought in there of course we'll meet later on in 16 is Silas. He's probably part of the group as well. So you've got maybe four, maybe more, we don't really know but but you've got a group of people excited about entering in. And maybe that adds weight, david, to the narrative around the power of the no and then the power of this vision.

John Andrews: 11:00

Call that there's a sense in which, because they're cross, it feels like they're crossing over into something new, quite literally, and entering into territory that, as far as we are aware, at no followers of Jesus or followers of the way have been before. This is now virgin territory. That it might add to to. Why then you get this vision call, you get this Macedonian call, as it's sometimes referred to. Adding a little bit of weight to this, I think.

John Andrews: 11:33

Could Paul and Silas and Timothy and Luke go without that call, of course, and there's much evidence that they would have done, but that call, I think, adds to the weight that this is a big moment, this is a crossing over moment. I love the way you put it. We're crossing over into the unfamiliar, quite literally in the story as well as for them, and they're not quite sure what they are going to find when they hit their first city. So it feels very adventurous. But the thing that we've got in the back of our mind is, hey, they've been called and they are confident that they have been called to preach the gospel in this particular context, and I do love that. I really resonate it with me as I read it again.

David Harvey: 12:17

Yeah, and a great point for everyone to catch, as you said, is that Luke has joined the party now, indeed. So if you notice that subtle switch that's happened that we had they were doing this, they were doing that, and then now it's, we immediately tried to cross over into Macedonia. So for me, that's fascinating, and maybe that's what's capturing Luke, that we're getting these slightly different details is we're now seeing the story, not through his research, which is what we had so far from the beginning of the Gospel of Luke, haven't we? We've had the research of Luke. Now we're into eyewitness testimony of the book of Acts, which is quite stunning, isn't it? It?

John Andrews: 13:03

is. It's absolutely wonderful and to sort of take note of that even as we move further into chapter 16, because there's some interesting moments where the way disappears. So again, it's fascinating in terms of some of the some of the reflection there. But yeah, it seems like this little party are confidently advancing into virgin territory.

David Harvey: 13:25

Interesting as well. I mean, and this is we're sort of just hanging back to previous episodes discussion, but it occurs to me, you know we've got Paul, we've picked up Timothy, luke appears to have joined the journey, but we're also developing a new partnership because of Silas' appearance that it was it just and I know to the listener it's a few weeks, but it's actually just a few verses ago that Paul and Barnabas have separated. So we're in unfamiliar territory but actually with an unfamiliar team. So it's really fascinating. This group of people are bonded by the Holy Spirit and they're moving out into completely unfamiliar spaces for them and they don't have a strong depth of relationship. I mean, pretty much every character in this story, with the exception of Paul, is new to us and I think that's like in terms of the real world implication of that. That's quite fascinating, isn't it.

John Andrews: 14:32

Absolutely. And again, some things are forged together in the heat of doing. I mean, you and I are committed to the idea of training and development and absolutely that's give people as much training as we possibly can. But we also know we've been around long enough that you could train people forgive my language in a classroom or in a controlled environment, but we're never really going to know what they're going to be like until they're out there and they're under pressure and they're squeezed or opportunities present themselves.

John Andrews: 15:07

So, timothy, silas, luke, john Mark, they can all look good on paper, but it's not until you sort of cross to use a sporting analogy it's not until you cross the white line onto the pitch, sort of thing that you, okay, what's going to happen here and how's this going to work out.

John Andrews: 15:27

And I do love the idea of we learn something about ourselves, we learn something about each other and we learn something about the teams that we are part of in the heat of doing mission, in the heat of doing life.

John Andrews: 15:41

And I would go further, david, and please feel free to push back on me I think there's some things you only learn in the heat, that you only learn when you get out there and do it and for all of us I suppose everyone listening they would have numerous examples of those sorts of experiences that, oh, what I thought that would be like and what it was, are very different things and therefore we're having to adapt, move, change, strategize, learn very, very quickly, and that's without pressure, that's without persecution, that's without all the extra stuff being thrown and that's just the everyday stuff of the gospel. So, yeah, it's fascinating that we can read this sort of very clinically. Oh yeah, paul Silas, this lovely little team went to cross and start, but actually this is a new team in a new area and it's all feeling, ooh, we do God's in it, but what's gonna happen next? What's gonna happen next?

David Harvey: 16:42

So yeah, and so I hadn't entirely thought that we would talk about this unfamiliarity thing until we did, which is what I love about our podcast, but notice how, actually, that really is a fascinating undercurrent to the narrative. So we remained verse 12, we remained in this city for some days. It's in this conversation about the unfamiliarity you realize how unfamiliar this is. So they turn up in Philippi and I don't mean any disrespect when I say this to the Holy Spirit or this missionary party but they actually turn up in the city and don't know what to do, which makes you remember, of course they don't know what to do. There are no Christians here, so it's not. I mean, it does not strike you as well?

John Andrews: 17:34

It's brilliant. It absolutely adds to the whole. Oh, this is really fascinating. And of course, as you move into verse 13, on the Sabbath. Well, these guys would normally be on the Sabbath heading for the local synagogue, but of course there is none. So it seems that the fact that they can't in the few days that they've hunted around they can't find the synagogue means there's no significant Jewish community presence. So they're then deciding right, where do we go? What do we do? It's Sabbath, we should do something.

John Andrews: 18:06

And I find it fascinating that Luke links on the Sabbath to finding some sort of religious context In this context, a place of prayer. They expected to find a place of prayer, but I love that. They're improvising, they're adapting, they're contextualizing, they're not compromising what the gospel is. But they suddenly realize okay, if there's no synagogue, where do we go? There are no followers of the way. Where do we go? You know, we can either stand in the street and shout at people, or maybe we can find some spaces where spiritual people, people with an open heart to spirituality, are connecting. Somehow. Let's go there and again, it could be, the Holy Spirit led them there, or they end up going to that place of prayer because they've done this sort of two or three, four, four, five day recce around the city and check stuff out, they'll oh, that's where we could go on on Shabbat. So it is.

John Andrews: 19:04

It does give you the sense of and think about it yourself Like if me and you like suddenly landed in a place where there was no one else, like we were, for example, the only English speakers in that place, or we were the only men in that place, or the only followers of Jesus in that place, or the only Celtics in that place. My goodness, you're going. Oh, okay, I just need to get my bearings here and find out what's going on. So the sense of newness is there and it throws up again.

John Andrews: 19:37

One last little thought that popped into my head with this was that there's a sense of which, when Paul and the team do stuff, you're asking is that a? Is that a policy that they've already gotten their brain, that they're doing, or is this stuff they're learning to do as they go, this sort of becoming practice? Because they're doing it, and you get the sense that if they were in a Jewish, a town with a Jewish community, they would be heading for synagogue, but because it's not there, they improvise. Right, where can we go to connect with people? And again you get that sense of almost rolling policy, rolling practice, learning to do it as they go along and figuring it out, either with the help of the Holy Spirit or their own sort of insight and understanding.

David Harvey: 20:25

I remember getting off the plane in Singapore years ago now John probably count it for 20 years from now and the taxi driver asking me where I was from, and I said, oh, I live near Manchester. And then he immediately told me all of the places that I could go in Singapore, that I'd be able to watch Manchester United playing football. But it's not a dissimilar feeling, is it? You arrive somewhere and go. Okay, where will people go?

David Harvey: 20:51

And I think it's fascinating that, Luke, he doesn't make clear to us what the deal is with Lydia. Is she a convert to Judaism? Because he uses this phrase, a worshiper of God? Now, this is a term that is used of people who are converts to Judaism, so that would at least imply she's probably not Jewish born. But the worshiper of God isn't absolutely necessary to mean that she's a Jewish convert. It might just be that she's a person who is spiritual to your point which is very interesting that Luke doesn't feel that's an overly poor All the detail that we've got in this story. He doesn't feel it's necessary to overly define anything other than this woman's listening, because the Lord's opening her heart.

John Andrews: 21:44

Absolutely, and not just this woman. I love the phrase. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there.

John Andrews: 21:53

And again, if you've hung around us for any length of time in terms of trying to get Dr Luke, there's a gorgeous oh, we've heard these things before Women at the birth narrative, women at the resurrection, women at the crucifixion, women disciples of Jesus, all in the Lukean narrative. Women in the upper room getting filled with the Spirit. And here we have now this new territory, exploring this Gentile region, and the first bunch of people that are being spoke to about the gospel are women. And you go oh, that's just too cool. Right, we know it's accurate in terms of information, but I love the fact that Dr Luke has picked that up and if we're following his breadcrumbs, we're going. Oh, nice spot. He could have just said that there were people gathered there, oh, and Lydia happened to be there, but he contextualizes that around these women meeting for prayer and gathering there in this place of prayer. So I love that. I love that little nod, nod there to the sort of ongoing narrative with women in the context.

David Harvey: 22:56

And of course this is significant as a jump into this woman, lydia, this certain woman named Lydia that we bump into because she clearly is a woman of means and a woman of some power, if I can say it like that. So I'm with you that I think it's beautifully looking like we're in unfamiliar territory, we are breaking out of Acts 15, where we're actually. We've got this freedom to be in unfamiliar territory and, forgive me, I'm trying to think about how to frame this and not make an inappropriate point about it. But let me just say this, and then you rescue me if it's inappropriate, but it's kind of not lost on me the Acts 15, with this whole conversation about ultimately circumcising Gentiles, it's like, oh, my goodness, what's going to happen? We're going to go to these foreign territories and then are we going to have to circumcise all of these men converts, and then they go to the foreign territory and it's women that they meet. I mean, I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make, but I think it's really.

David Harvey: 24:04

I think it's a really fun point to point out that actually Luke sort of reminded us oh no, there's a whole, there's a whole other world of people that we can meet. Where, at some level, is the Holy Spirit being playful with us here to point out that, oh, this is the extent to which the gospel is boundaryless, right, that even this huge council that we had about a particularly complex discussion might not be as immediately problematic as you think. Right, so it's like they go with the script. I think this is what I'm trying to say. They go with the script where they're like oh, this is really good, we'll be able to tell these people, you don't need to be circumcised. And then they arrive and it's a group of women they're with and it's like oh, the spirit is still disrupting. And please, listeners, forgive me if I'm not trying to be inappropriate when I'm talking about that, but I think there's a Luke. I think Luke pokes at these things with us to just always remind us the spirit's bigger than how we've boxed them in. Oh, completely.

John Andrews: 25:02

So it's a great observation and I think it's almost humorous. And again, if you're reading these stories back to back, you are noticing oh, that is interesting. Again, if you didn't spot it it wouldn't change the story, but when you do spot it you think that's fascinating, that it's a group of women and they're responding and, in particular, a gentile businesswoman is responding and God's doing something amazing. And, David, I tell you what else I just spot. I mean, I was so excited reading this again, verse 14, the Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message, and I couldn't read that phrase and not hear Luke 24.

John Andrews: 25:49

Again, thinking about Luke, thinking about Dr Luke and the fact that we're seeing patterns now and that, and of course, in Luke 24, we've got Jesus walking with the two on the road to a mess. Yeah, he opens the scriptures same word. Yeah, when he breaks bread with them, he opens their eyes same word. And then later on in 24, he opens their minds to the scriptures. You've got right at the end, at this resurrection moment, as we're heading towards a post resurrection world which will include the Gentiles.

John Andrews: 26:25

You've got these openings happening and, of course, we've had this gorgeous contrast in the buildup to the story. We've had things stopped or closed by implication. So a door is closed to Bethany, a door is closed to Asia Minor, and here the first action of the Holy Spirit in this new territory is to open the heart of Lydia, in the same way that the eyes of the two on the road to a mess were opened before Jesus. And I'm thinking, Dr Luke, that is just too good. That is just too good. Is that too much? Or am I getting excited for good reason?

David Harvey: 27:02

No, I think it's lovely because, even as you're talking about that and maybe we need to keep stacking things up on top of this I think this is what Luke's doing and I even wonder if this is the narrative genius of all the unfamiliar place names. Like it's not. We've called this series although I think when we called this we didn't realize it would run for this long but the disruptive presence. So I am disrupted when I'm in a foreign land, foreign to me obviously, where all the names feel strange. So it's like, yeah, there's that beautiful line I know you love it, so it's low hanging fruit to bring it in, but a beautiful line in the chosen TV series where Jesus just says get used to different. And this is a bit of that get used to different. Right, where towns don't sound the same anymore, it's now a group of Jewish men sat with a group of Gentile women proclaiming the gospel, and now doors were closed, but hearts are opened right. Unfamiliar places, unfamiliar people, and yet the Lord is doing what the Lord does in those spaces. And of course, notice then that it's a powerful woman, and so she is a dealer in purple cloth, and a lot can be made of this and people can read the commentaries if they want to really explore it. But, as we'll notice, she has her own home and she seems to be in charge of that home and, as we'll see, she appears to become the leader of the church in that home as well. It's the church of Lydia's house, isn't it?

David Harvey: 28:44

But also notice I think it's interesting because I've done a little bit of thinking about this in my time but notice the final line of verse 15, and she prevailed upon us. So we went to prevail upon. We went to convince people of something else, but she convinced us of something you will come and stay at my house, but there's a gorgeous invitation. If you think I'm faithful to the Lord, that's beautiful. Which, bear in mind, this was Paul's concern about John Mark, that he was maybe going to let them down. But there's this invitation here from this foreign woman and again I'm using the word foreign relation to Paul this foreign woman in a foreign place who says do you trust me, paul? Do you trust that God is working in my life? And she persuaded them. He was oh, it's beautiful, he's great isn't it?

John Andrews: 29:35

Oh, it's phenomenal. And David, again I couldn't. And again, this is probably just it comes because we get so familiar with beautiful text. But again, when I read and she persuaded us I heard the Ames road echo again. So if our listeners read the two on the road to Ames, there's a moment where Jesus, it says, he acted as if he were going farther, it says, but we urged him, or they urged him, to come in and stay. But this is exactly the same phraseology, exactly the same words being used. She persuaded us in the same way that the two on the road to Ames. I think it's verse 29, because I double checked it to make sure it wasn't going weird. They persuaded him and you get this wonderful moment that they persuaded him, and then that's when they get their moment of revelation.

John Andrews: 30:36

But in here, lydia has already received her moment of revelation. Her eyes have been open, her heart's been open and now she's persuading them. Look, if you think I've really got this, if you really trust me, then let me open my home in the way that the Lord has opened my heart. And she urged them, like strongly urged them, set up base here in my house, and I love the idea that her heart's been opened, she opens her home Immediately.

John Andrews: 31:07

There's this sort of immediate practical response of encountering Jesus, this immediate practical response of the way and in the same way that the two on the road to Ames, when their eyes are open, they immediately get up and they go back to Jerusalem. There's like something urgent happens, something powerful happens, something changes in both lifestyles and directions as a result of this opening moment and Lydia becomes this incredible conduit to the gospel with her wealth Undoubtedly I mean, it's probably unimaginable that she didn't use her wealth to help fund the church but certainly she's opening up her home and she's opening up her life and her family to this whole thing. So it's just quite incredible moment.

David Harvey: 31:57

It's kind of is stunning as well, and, john, I hadn't made that connection of that particular line, and the moment you said it I was like, of course, there's exactly what happens in the Ames story. Did you look, though? So I was just looking while you were talking. Just there, it's exactly the same word, exactly.

John Andrews: 32:14

Exactly the same Greek word, yeah, so.

David Harvey: 32:17

I hadn't noticed that you. I didn't know if you'd spotted it. You said it's the same phraseology. I didn't know if you'd noticed, but as best as I can see, I think it's also maybe the only time that Luke uses those two words.

David Harvey: 32:29

Which would be really really fascinating as well that he's potentially drawing that conclusion, that connection, to you. And. But then, of course, if we were to dig, this is a two text classic don't build your house that this is what Luke is doing. But it's not then lost on me that where Jesus, he's own disciples, prior to the Holy Spirit, are urged Jesus to say to stay, but have not believed in him Right, you know, because they don't realize who he is and make the gospel proclamation until after he breaks the bread.

David Harvey: 33:03

Here this woman has been judged faithful to the Lord. Also, can I just say this as well, because I think this requires a little bit of thinking about that if you have judged me faithful to the Lord and all she's done I mean all in huge inverted commas all she's done has been baptized, and I love that notion that this is don't read this as she's done all these amazing things that Paul's had to look at and decide. You know what? I think you're serious. You took the membership course, you've signed up for direct debit. It's simply, she has been baptized. And beautiful. They trust the power of that. Actually, it's quite something, isn't it?

John Andrews: 33:49

It is quite something. And isn't it beautiful that she's making the appeal of having them come to her home and in theory we're speculating. The church, the Ecclesia, meets in her home. She's doing that not on the basis of her wealth, not on the basis of her influence, but on the basis of her confession and baptism. Isn't that beautiful? This is clearly an influential and powerful and wealthy woman, and yet she's not leveraging her power, her wealth or influence. She is appealing to her faith.

John Andrews: 34:27

Now I'm going oh, this is a serious burden. This is something's really happened in Lydia, because this is a woman and she is literally cutting to the heart of this whole thing and is not leveraging her previous life to impress the men of God. But she's saying if you really think this is real in me, then my home is open and what I am and what I have is yours. And I think that, david, I think it's another little gem hidden in plain sight, so easy to miss that and rush past Because it sounds so normal and it sounds so right. But that's so different.

John Andrews: 35:08

We bumped into Simon the sorcerer. His language was different. Her language is humble. Her language is submissive. Her language is if this is real in me. If you say it is real, then allow me to serve. And of course we get this lovely little statement which echoes later on in X16. She and her household were baptized, and we're not exactly sure how many in the household there were, but it seems like because she's taken the plunge, excuse the pun everyone else is within her household. So something dramatic is happening and has happened to this woman. But the humility of the drama, I think, is absolutely breathtaking. That's stunning, john.

David Harvey: 35:52

I'd not quite picked up on that like that. I mean, like you say I had, but I hadn't paused the thing for a while, but I hadn't paused to think about it long enough. But I mean that adds this double dynamic of disruption of the spirit here, Because the one disruption, the one we're quick to see, is that it's Jewish men in unfamiliar space talking to women in a very patriarchal society. So the first disruptive move of the spirit is women will lead this, which is amazing. But it's so true that there's a second disruption that the economics of the world are not giving people status here. She is not and my goodness, that's a tough lesson for the church in the modern times that she is the leader of this new movement in that particular space. And she's first, at very least because of faithfulness and not because of her economic, which I think will feed us into our next episode, because now we're gonna see another economic disruption happen, right. So the spirit with another woman as well, which just strikes me that just to give a little bit of a trailer for what's coming next. But so you're seeing this similar pattern with somebody who again is generating income and that's not considered something of priority to the spirit, and I wonder if that's the.

David Harvey: 37:23

Willie Jennings, in his commentary on Acts, talks about how Lydia lives against the world Contra Mundi. He uses the Latin because, although she appears like somebody who has it all together from the world's point of view, the spirit calls her to act out according to a new way of being, and she is faithful to that. So that's it for this episode. We know that there's always more to explore and we encourage you to dive into the text and do that. If you liked this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you rated, reviewed or shared it. We also appreciate all of our listeners who financially support the show, sharing the weight of producing this podcast. If you'd like to support the show, visit totextscom. But that is all for now. So until next time from John and I goodbye.