Confronting Idolatry in Athens | Disruptive Presence 89

David Harvey: 0:53

Hi and welcome to the Two Texts podcast. I'm here with my co-host, john Andrews, and my name is David Harvey. This is a podcast of two friends from two different countries meeting every two weeks to talk about the Bible. Each week, we pick one text to talk about, which invariably leads us to talking about two texts and often many more. This season we're taking a long, slow journey through the book of Acts to explore how the first Christians encountered the disruptive presence of the Holy Spirit. 

John Andrews: 1:28

Well, david, we have arrived at Athens Now. I've had the privilege of being to Greece, but I've never had the privilege of getting to Athens itself, but I feel like it's a city I know pretty well, so it's amazing. So we've arrived at this incredible moment. Paul seems to be on his own and arrives at a hugely important city, what feels like, again, a hugely important moment in the journey of the church in Athens. It feels like we've moved out of what feels like an almost Jewish-saturated epicentre towards a Gentile world, and now it feels like we're properly, properly in the Gentile world. I know we've been there for a wee while, but it feels like we've properly arrived at the Gentile world now that we've had Athens. 

David Harvey: 2:22

Yes, no, absolutely. The center of Greek philosophy, of Greek thinking. If you've got a new idea, this is probably where it's going to come from or end up, and so it's quite exciting at some level if you've been tracking the journey that the gospel makes it here, and even exciting is how the gospel sits and is presented in these spaces. So we probably should say that we're not going to make our way through this in one episode. 

John Andrews: 2:56

Really, yeah, you think it's true. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's very exciting so. 

David Harvey: 3:04

I'm going to read this section for us. We won't read the whole of chapter 17 right now, we're just going to read the first part. That paul arrives and we find him. It kind of remember back that he's been separated from timothy and silas. He's waiting to re-in, reconnect with them, isn't he? And? And finds himself in athens waiting for silas and timothy and because it's paul, he's not doing nothing while he's waiting. 

John Andrews: 3:32

Indeed absolutely yeah, yeah. 

David Harvey: 3:34

So this is Acts, chapter 17 and beginning at verse 16. It says While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was deeply distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and also in the marketplace every day, with those who happened to be there Also. Some Epicurean and Stoic philosophers debated with him persons, and also in the marketplace every day with those who happen to be there Also. Some Epicurean and Stoic philosophers debated with him. Some said what does this babbler want to say? Others said he seems to be a proclaimer of foreign divinities. This was because he was telling the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. So they took him and brought him to the Areopagus and asked him may we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? It sounds rather strange to us, so we would like to know what it means. Now all the Athenians and the foreigners living there would spend their time in nothing but telling or hearing something new telling or hearing something new. 

John Andrews: 4:35

Yeah, sounds like a great place to go on holiday, doesn't it? Absolutely, absolutely staggering. I love that little sort of final comment there and a little bit of the reading that we've done. Just quite striking. 

David Harvey: 4:47

It's fascinating actually that just as you say that final little line there maybe we unpack this when we get there that Luke's criticism is that all they're doing is speaking and hearing. And as I was reading that, it kind of struck me how Luke envisages the gospel not as something that is just heard or spoken about, but something that does something. So they're just speaking and hearing ideas. Paul is not just speaking and hearing ideas in luke's mind he, he's doing something. 

John Andrews: 5:19

I mean, maybe that's too much just to over egg straight away, but but I thought it was an interesting critique completely, completely and and I think again it does it does show you that we're now entering into a very, very, very different world, because the world of well, certainly the world of Saul, before he's converted by meeting Jesus, would have been a world of hearing and doing so. 

John Andrews: 5:44

The idea of just hearing Torah, the idea of just hearing Tanakh and not practicing that, is an alien concept for a jewish worldview. 

John Andrews: 5:54

And, of course, as that jewish worldview has now tracked in via the messiah to what we call the ecclesia or the church that they're, they're carrying on exactly the same idea. It's hearing and doing, hearing and doing so. You do get this sense in the book of acts that, as we're tracking this Judeo-Christian worldview and understanding of the scriptures as taught by Jesus, that actually you've got not just a great commitment to orthodoxy things we believe but a phenomenal commitment to orthopraxy things that we do, things that we practice, and we've been tracking that all the way through, I think, and that little comment does seem to put us at cultural odds things that we do, things that we practice, and we've been trekking that all the way through, I think, and that little comment does seem to put us at cultural odds, so we haven't even got into the discussions about the gods and whatever else is going on, but already we've now got a clash of worldviews that is quite pronounced before we even get to the heart of Paul's engagement and sermon with the Athenians. 

David Harvey: 6:54

Yes, because the standard intro that is shocking to a Jewish reader is Paul is distressed by the idols, he's in the presence of idols and I wonder if that's I mean, one of the things that fascinates the ancient world that I think, as our listeners would want to always keep in mind, is the fascination for the ancient world was the Jewish people's lack of imagery. There's a famous story of the Roman emperor who, when he invaded Jerusalem and desecrated the temple and he goes into the most holy place of the temple I mean, it's a shocking, shocking behavior on so many relations. Abomination of desolations that Jesus speaks of was known amongst many of the people in Israel at the time as this moment when this Roman emperor enters the most holy place of the temple. Of course, this is the second temple. So I remember when we were lecturers together, john, I used to ask my students and what did he see when he went into the most holy place? 

David Harvey: 8:10

But of course, because it's the second temple, all of the things that we read in scripture that would be in the most holy place are not there anymore. So he goes into the most holy place of Israel's world and it's empty. There's nothing there and what happens is Jewish people, and we see this apply to Christians even more so later. They're perceived by the ancient world as atheists, because they don't have gods, you don't have idols, you don't have things that you look at. So it's worth holding that in mind, that Paul is coming from a context where there are no images of the God and he's now coming into the ancient kind of Athenian context where there's idols of the gods everywhere. This would be quite stark. I mean way more stark than, for example, when we go on a tourist trip, for example, and go see, maybe, your church. Your church meets in a basement of a, of a building somewhere, and then the next thing you're at vatican city, at the church there. Like that stark contrast, this would be even wider than that for paul, wouldn't it? 

John Andrews: 9:23

completely, absolutely, and and it is, it's one again. I think you see the, the, the incredible clash in the culture here, that Judaism, a great monotheistic faith, but also a monotheistic faith that resisted all sense of trying to image their God and trying to capture that God. And of course, when you track that back to Torah, it's the feeling that, well, what are you going to make? That captures me. Nothing could in any way even begin to capture who God is. But also it's the futility of a human shaping something that either captures the glory but also reduces God down to something to be shaped by human hands. And of course, the Torah is exactly the opposite idea. It is the invisible God who shapes the human image. It's not humans who shape the God image. So you've got this amazing sense. 

John Andrews: 10:29

In fact, I was just meditating today, as part of my reflections and my meditations in the scriptures, on sometimes what is referred to in the tabernacle as the showbread or the bread of his presence. But literally it's the chem panim, it's the bread of the face. So presence in Hebrew, this idea of God's presence, it's the word often it's used, face is euphemistically used. So if you were speaking of coming into the presence of God, you could literally talk about coming in before the face of God. So you get again this incredible, paradoxical idea that when Paul, as a Hebrew, would have thought of the presence of God, he would have thought of it in terms of God's face, because that's the word often, almost entirely used of God's presence. And yet there is no face. So Moses saw God face to face. But what did Moses actually see there? So it's this incredible language that helps us try to grasp that we're dealing with a God who cannot be captured by an image and he does not live in a space and he won't be restricted by the sorts of things that humans want to restrict him with. 

John Andrews: 11:55

And yet now, as Paul journeyed I'd imagine it literally or even metaphorically journeying from Jerusalem where there's hardly an image in the city. If there was anything, it would be in the Roman sections of the city, in the Roman palaces or barracks, but outside of that there's not an image anywhere that remotely points people to God. And now here we have the gospel reaching the heart of a supremely idolatrous context, context, a context where idolatry is not only tolerated but celebrated in the most profound way. And Paul and I love the language I know we should move past it. Greatly distressed, provoked in his spirit. I mean provoked in his spirit. And so Paul is like this is really irritating him and inciting him as he looks at the idolatry that's all around him, representative of the power of Greece and the power of Rome, of course, all of that mixing up together in that great pantheon that great pantheon, and there's that. 

David Harvey: 13:15

There's that one half of the tension, isn't it? Where paul's from a, a context where we don't build idols of the gods, he's now presenting jesus, the, as he says in colossians, the icon of the invisible god. So we I mean, I was thinking about that. That's one of the beautiful things is that all through the Old Testament we see this we don't build an image of God, because how could we? And then there's this immense irony of Christianity that when God comes amongst us, he ends up looking exactly like us, which speaks to this whole created in his image thing as well, in gorgeous ways. But not only all of that, of course. 

David Harvey: 13:53

Idolatry, then, is considered to be the dominant sin. You'll hear the rabbis speak sometimes about how, at some level, all sin is idolatry. It's to put something in place of our honoring of the divine and of Yahweh, and so there's a sort of double hit of challenges here, isn't it? It's not just that Paul's not used to being in context like Athens, but that also represents the, the worst of of human brokenness in his, in his religious sensibilities. Is that a good way to describe it? Oh, no, I. 

John Andrews: 14:35

I think it's absolutely there and I there's great echoes of that, even when you think about Paul's writing to Rome and the sort of the opening of that letter to the Roman church, where he he really. I think he really sets up an incredible argument about the power of idolatry, where we make God in our image, and once we make God in our image, it allows us to fundamentally change our own. So idolatry is either a sign that we've already moved away from his image of us and therefore we have to reshape him to fit with our image, or idolatry will lead to a reshaping of our own image because we've reshaped him, and I think that's the, for me, the most troubling part of the idea of idolatry is for humans to shape God in the way they want him. So, like for many people especially for many people, say, from a Christian worldview point of view there would be a struggle, like even in us, to sort of put an image on the mantelpiece. We might have a bit of religious art, and in my home I've got some nice sort of religious art, but it's very generic, it's not pointed at anything that looks like an image of God. So most of us would be super careful about making sure we don't fall into the trap of like an idol or an image sitting on a mantelpiece, for example, to be a bit crude and extreme there. But I think, more subtly, we are all in danger of making God in our own image. I think that's the profound power and subtlety of idolatry. 

John Andrews: 16:30

Is that, ultimately, what Athens was about, and even what Rome was about, was designing ideas that would sort of pander to their own needs and wants and therefore fit their own agenda? I mean, paul will. Ultimately, when we get to it, we'll get to his great sermon in the hill of Ares, in the hill of the god of war, something of our even back then, our designer God idea that we have gods who fit the moments we are in, and it's that idea which I think is fundamentally idolatrous. It's God fits my world. If I go to war, I have a God for that. If there's issues to do with my sexuality, there's a God for that. If there's issues to do with money, there's a God for that. If there is to do with money, there's a God for that. 

John Andrews: 17:31

An alien concept to the worldview of Tanakh and the worldview of the early church. That, no, no, there is one God and he doesn't fit with us, we fit with him. And this is, I think that's the more subtle and I think even in our 21st century world, david, I think that's a profoundly powerful idea and ideology that still hangs about the human heart, that if there is a God, we want him to sort of look a bit more like us and fit with us, rather than me having to change and fit with him. Did it go on a bit of a rant there? Was that too much? 

David Harvey: 18:09

No, I agree with you because I think I was. I was thinking, even as you were saying, like I, I've been. I've been studying a bit of kind of history of christian iconography recently and it's fascinating that even in the great iconographers of of the world they don't attempt to, they struggle with representing the Father, right. So there's all these gorgeous icons out there of Jesus, right, but it's always Jesus as a human and it's Jesus at the Last Supper, jesus. I have an icon of Jesus on the road to Emmaus and you'll love it actually, john, because it's an Orthodox icon and so it's believed in the Orthodox tradition that one of the people who's on the road to a mace is Dr Luke. It's just a guess, but I kind of like it because it always reminds me of you when I look at it. I don't think an icon is supposed to remind you of your friend, but it does. 

John Andrews: 19:10

It's very honoring to be put in the same context as Dr Luke. I will take that. I will take that. 

David Harvey: 19:17

Maybe it's just because I know that you would love it. I think, if people ask that question, which scene from the Bible would you like to be at? I feel like Emmaus Rhodes on your short list. 

John Andrews: 19:25

Oh, yeah, totally. 

David Harvey: 19:26

Absolutely One hundred percent. But it's interesting that in the tradition of iconography, when it comes to how do you represent the father, in my limited study one of the most famous icons is one by the Russian artist Rublev, and he paints the scene of the visitors to Abraham, because that's the closest we know that there's something extra special going on in here. So even in Christian tradition, the sense of the unimaginable nature of God is held and held on to, and I think that I think it's really profound and it's worth us holding space, that what our Jewish heritage of the Christian faith gave us was be careful of trying to frame what looks like God. I think about Moses' question to God what's your name? Tell me your name, because in the ancient world, knowing the name of the God was a way to control him. 

David Harvey: 20:25

If I can put my God on a mantelpiece, in my own mind it feels like I can maybe control him, I can maybe make him do what I want, whereas the Christian way has always been that if we wear a cross or we carry an icon or something like that, it's about reminding us to come to God with our requests. But we're in no way in control of that God. But, my goodness, we're resilient to that. I mean, I see that so often with the sort of God bless and then impose our country name on the end of that sentence. Invariably what we mean is bless us as opposed to somebody else. And we're very, very susceptible, even after thousands of years of the Judeo-Christian tradition, we are susceptible to thinking that God likes us a little bit more than he likes everybody else, and I think that's a pathway to forms of really, really broken idolatry. 

John Andrews: 21:29

Yeah, and I would totally agree with that. I think you can have that at super macro levels like nationalistic, imperialistic levels, and we have witnessed that in the most appalling way over human history, and we don't have to go back that far, if at all, to continue to see that sort of idea of hoping that God is on our side in that respect but of course it comes right down to a micro level as well have been in my attempts at times, in my brokenness and sinfulness, to try and manipulate God, to try and make him do what I want him to do, and in a way that I think has, if not a capital, I idolatry idea, it has definitely nuanced leanings towards okay, I want you, this is what I want, and therefore I becomes the center of the conversation, rather than, what is it you want and how do we serve that? And I wrestle with that. Even Maybe our listeners sort of are surprised by that, but so often I have to come back to the glory of the scriptures that remind me that he is at the center of the story and that ultimately we are surrendering to him. 

John Andrews: 23:06

One of my everyday confessions from the Psalms is blessed are you, lord, god, god of Israel, for you alone have done marvelous deeds. Blessed be your glorious name forever. May your glory be seen on all the earth. So this is about him. The agenda is not about oh, bless me, oh God, but it's actually you are blessed, oh God. You are the creator and sustainer of the universe, and may your name be known across the earth. So that's the ultimate agenda that I surrender to Struggle of please forgive my language of a consumeristic, orientated religion that wants to sort of pick the best bits, drop the worst bits and create a sort of a designer God who suits my lifestyle, my preferences and my desires. 

John Andrews: 24:01

This, to me, is deeply, deeply, deeply dangerous, and that's why I would sort of say I would agree with you totally that when you said earlier on there's a sense in which idolatry is at the heart of all sin, it's, it really is the I. 

John Andrews: 24:17

I think when, when, when the woman in the garden reaches out, she saw. She saw the fruit, what, what did she see? She'd seen that fruit every day, but what did she see? She saw for herself, she saw what was good for her, and I think that's the very essence of the danger of idolatry that we see what is good for us as the primary and sometimes only driver in our relationship with the Lord, when actually what it really is about is seeing him, even his invisible him, even not represented in any shapes or icons, to see him and surrender to him. And I think this is part of Paul's tussle here, because he doesn't just see idols and statues. I think he understands the deep, insidious drivers of idolatry and what it does to humans ultimately, because if you're saturated in Torah, you understand then the insidiously dangerous ideas that are at the heart of an idolatrous mindset. 

David Harvey: 25:25

It's fascinating when you were saying that. I was thinking about how there were multiple thoughts. So here they are, in some sort of order. First thing I thought about is how do we learn to pray like Jesus, which is to say, father, I don't actually want to do this right now, but not my will, but yours be done, right? I think that's an idolatry, destroying prayer, because if we can bring the freedom to bring all of our requests to God, even the ones that which we in our hearts know I'm kind of trying to control God here but if I can, at the end of it, pray, but not my will, but yours be done then I think, if I can pray that with honesty, something's being set well there. I was thinking as well about when you were talking. 

David Harvey: 26:09

Something I've noticed just recently in the traditional prayer books is that most services of the church in the traditional prayer books begin with Blessed be God, father, son and Holy Spirit, and I was thinking about how so many of my services that I have led over the years begin with me saying yeah, it's good to see you, welcome, right, and and I'm, I'm, and I'm making a lot, I'm you absolutely probably over egging here, but it's interesting in the tradition of the church, the first thing said of the service is something said to god yes. 

David Harvey: 26:43

And in our contemporary context, the first thing said to the service is something said to us right, that we say welcome to the people, whereas the tradition of the church has been to say, actually we, we're here for God. Blessed be God. And I think again there's a subtle idolatry shifting thing there that when we turn up in church and the first thing the church service has said to us we might be forgiven for assuming that the service is for us. And I think so many problems in the Western church particularly is that we've got the impression that the service was for us I like the sermon, I like the worship, I like the prayers as opposed to it being we're here to do something for God. 

John Andrews: 27:23

Yes, absolutely. 

David Harvey: 27:25

But perhaps my deeper thought those are just kind of throwaway comments. I was thinking about the garden, and John Walton's work on the Garden of Eden is really fascinating. I'd recommend anybody read his book. The Lost World of Adam and Eve is really fascinating, and he reads the Garden of Eden story through an ancient Near Eastern mindset. As to how would an ancient person see this story? And of course, what's fascinating about it is that he describes the story of creation as a temple building narrative. Right, yeah, he said this is where ancient texts should begin is with how did we end up with our temple. But the hebrew story begins with how we ended up with the earth, right, which of course is fascinating because the earth is later described as the temple of the lord. 

David Harvey: 28:09

In in scripture, walton makes the point that when you're building a temple, the last thing you do in the temple building process is you put an idol in it. So you first build the temple, then you purify the temple, then you have a consecration of the temple and then you place the idol in the middle and now it's a place of worship. And Walton notes look at how the Genesis story works God builds the world and he keeps. He keeps consecrating it. And it was good. And he consecrated and he keeps consecrating it was good. Then the final thing he does is in the middle of the garden he places the icon of himself. But it's humans, right. He places the image of God in the garden. It's just. It's us right. 

David Harvey: 28:51

So there's a deep irony. This is what I was then reflecting on, with that in my mind. There's an irony that Eve grasps after something as idolatry, missing the fact that she is the image of God, that she is the one. And then you think about what Paul says about Jesus he doesn't grasp and you've got this gorgeous sense of the futility of idolatry that we seek. We who are made in the image of God, seek to be God, not realizing that we are made in his image already. And I don't know if you feel that, John, but I just think there's a deep, sad irony to human brokenness towards idolatry. 

John Andrews: 29:37

Yeah, superb, absolutely outstanding. And even your that's what I love about you your little throwaway. Well, this isn't the main reflection, just to reflect. I mean they were brilliant and again, for our listeners, that's worth just a wee rewind on the podcast there and listen to that section again. No, I think that's absolutely outstanding. 

John Andrews: 29:57

And I think again, when we then arrive at somewhere like Athens, what we mustn't do is just think, oh, this is just, oh, yeah, this is the Gentile context, this is what we expect. But this is the product of humanity profoundly drifting from the original ideas that God intended. And this is why Paul is provoked in spirit. So we mustn't just read this provocation of spirit or greatly distressed, I think, as, oh yeah, paul's a Jew and Jews don't do idols and therefore he's a bit freaked out. I think Paul is provoked in spirit because Paul knows what you've just said. Paul understands the Eden tabernacle, temple motifs. He understands that even in Solomon's great temple there wasn't anything that remotely resembled the physicality or image of God that actually he fills the heavens and the earth is his footstool. So when you have been drenched and saturated in a worldview that actually understands these, these immense ideas, and how they not only lead humans in the wrong direction, but deeply can I say this, carefully and reverently, but deeply offend the heart of God himself. I mean, these are ideas that God hates. He explicitly says do not do this stuff, do not make an idol of me, do not make an image. Do this stuff, do not make an idol of me. Do not make an image. Do not be careful even how you use my name in the context of this stuff. 

John Andrews: 31:40

Paul has been schooled in this, he's been saturated in this and added to this, now he has met the risen, resurrected Messiah. We reflected on this back in Acts, chapter 9. Paul is struck blind. Whatever he saw, he didn't see an image as such, but he's blinded. But he engages with this magnificent, invisible God who touches him, but his eyes are opened to see the glory of Christ in the scriptures. And I think then, paul's distress is not just Jew on Gentile. Paul's distress is something that's deeply ingrained within him, and it's interesting that Luke records that level of distress. He does not simply skid over it. Paul is agitated to the point of profound action because of what he sees and feels in Athens. 

David Harvey: 32:47

And I mean in one sense I appreciate the translations of greatly distressed, but, as you said, let's not miss that Number one. There's a provoking, so something is playing on him, but Luke wants to see. It's in his spirit, so it's a provoking. It's an unusual word only appears one other time in the New Testament, in 1 Corinthians, when Paul says that love is not but the fact that it's unusual word only appears one other time in the new testament, in first corinthians, when paul says that love is not but the fact that it's in his spirit. So we're seeing some things happening internally to paul as a result of this. This is not just, oh, he's seen something and it's riled him up a little bit like it's. It's, I think, luke, I, I think this is what I'm trying to say when Luke uses a phrase like in his spirit. Luke's attention to the language of the spirit makes me think he's not just saying Paul was a little bit angry, he's saying at an elemental level Paul is distressed by what's going on here. 

John Andrews: 33:52

No, I think that's brilliant and I think that's certainly that's what I was picking up. David, we know Paul's passionate at so many levels here he's deeply agitated and incited to the point of action and remembering that he's on his own here, so it's not like he's surrounded by people in whom he can get some solace and comfort, it seems to be. He is on his own, completely on his own, and that sense of provocation, irritation, agitation would have been exaggerated by the fact that he was isolated and feeling like, without over-egging it, it's sort of me against the world, sort of thing, and I need to say something and I need to do something. So, yeah, it's an incredible opening to the conversation and I think might explain then why Paul does what he does as the story here at Athens continues. 

David Harvey: 34:56

It's interesting as well when you look at the Greek, you get this sentence construction. It's very typical sentence construction where the first thing we're presented with is Paul sees these idols and then the second thing we get is a two-part response. It's a kind of on the one hand, and on the other hand is how it's constructed in Greek. So on the one hand he goes to the synagogue and reasons with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks and on the other hand he debates with the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. But it's interesting that Luke presents this grammatically as these are. 

David Harvey: 35:36

This is not the same thing that he does. He does two different things. He talks to the God-fearers and he talks to the philosophers, and I thought that was quite interesting, that he's reasoning with the Jewish and the God-fearing people, but we don't get the same evidence of tensions that we've encountered everywhere else. So one can only wonder what is he reasoning? Is he talking to them about the resurrection or is he talking to them about idolatry? And it's interesting that that would normally be the focus of the story so far. Paul arrives in the place, goes to the synagogue and then a riot or revival breaks out, as we sort of looked at in our previous episodes. This time, the reaction of the Jewish community is held quietly for us at this point, which almost might forgive you for wondering what was he talking with them about. 

John Andrews: 36:32

Yeah, yeah yeah. 

John Andrews: 36:32

What was he talking with them about? 

John Andrews: 36:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it is striking that the way that at verse 17 is put there and you've almost got sort of Jews, devout persons, and then he's meeting in the marketplace as well, a sort of an open forum conversation and discussion, which then brings him into conflict with the wider community of philosophers. 

John Andrews: 36:56

But it is interesting the lack of response, positive or negative, from the Jewish community and maybe Paul then found safe hearing in that community. I mean, if Paul is relating to them his disquiet at the idolatrous nature of the city, then there's a sense in which he would find affirmation and support from the Jewish community in that. And it seems to be, as the conversation goes wider, that then you've got him speaking about Jesus and the resurrection within that. So it is fascinating that there does seem to be a sort of an emphasis on a Jewish orientated conversation which seems to be calmly or passively received. We don't really know anything in terms of the response to that from the Jewish community, that from the Jewish community. But then it's as it goes wider that it starts to get a little bit of traction and gets noticed and gets pulled into a wider debate. 

David Harvey: 38:00

Yes, no, absolutely, absolutely interesting, and I think that, to me, is one of the things we don't want to lose. As a reader, when you read this text, that you hear this talked about sometimes, and it's almost like we get a little bit enamored by the gospel in Athens, right, and almost that sense that, oh my goodness, we're now at the sort of center of European culture and all that sort of thing, whereas what Luke seems to be presenting is is actually Paul in the midst of that. So Luke's enamored by Paul in Athens, not by Athens, and so and I wonder, even in the passage that we've read today, it's Luke frames it so that, if we pay attention, we don't get over enamored by atheists, which I was thinking about this in terms of your conversation about idolatry and the constant risk of idolatry, that this desire that we have sometimes, that let me try and say this carefully, but that Christianity be taken seriously and sensibly. And listeners, to quote one of my favorite John phrases, don't hear what I'm not saying, but we're talking about a man turning up in the center of the philosophical world and talking about a person who is raised from the dead. Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians about this wisdom not making sense. I don't believe that Christianity is stupid, I don't believe that Christianity is illogical, but I think we've also got to step back from ever hoping that Christianity makes sense in a world that doesn't confess resurrection. So Christianity offers a critique, and this is maybe I mean we're recording this not long after Easter. 

David Harvey: 39:57

I always remember Douglas Campbell saying that Christians state that they don't accept a worldview in which resurrection is not possible, and to me that's a stunning way to look at it. That's what Luke's trying to do, I think. Here is that Paul is coming with this message of resurrection to a culture that Luke doesn't want you to be enamored with. They refer to Paul as a babbler. Luke wants you to pick up on that insult. Athenians just sit around all day just thinking and talking and listening. He wants you to hear that negatively, because it's almost as if Luke's aware that this might be where Christianity becomes most susceptible in its desire to be socially acceptable, its desire for just people to take it seriously and sensibly. And what Paul seems to want to do we see this so explicitly in Corinthians is he wants you to always realize that without the Spirit, christianity will always seem to not make sense to you, and that's kind of okay. I mean, am I pushing that too far, john, or do you think? 

John Andrews: 41:05

No, I would totally agree. And in fact, as you were speaking, I just flipped over to 1 Corinthians speaking, I just flipped over to to first corinthians, and and he says for christ, did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom and eloquence. This, the cross of christ, be emptied of its power. Yeah, and again, I don't think we, we should hear the wrong thing. There paul is. Paul is not saying that the cross has no wisdom or eloquence, but he's saying there are not the things that enamor us, that actually, ultimately, it is the message of the cross. And it just goes on to say for the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. So there is this incredible juxtaposition that Paul seems to unpack a little bit more once he gets to Corinth. But he's clearly feeling that and I think your observations on Luke are brilliant. 

John Andrews: 42:01

I'd never quite seen that before that Luke doesn't want us to have our heads turned by Athens, he doesn't want us to be intimidated by the philosophers, he doesn't want us to go. Oh, we've got to make this gospel a little bit more palatable for the intelligentsia in order for them to accept this. And certainly, if Luke is doing that subtly in chapter 17, then by the time we get to Corinth, paul is doing that absolutely boldly. Then by the time we get to Corinth, paul is doing that absolutely boldly and reminding us that actually God was pleased, through the foolishness of what was preached, to save those who believe. It is an incredible if you put, I think, if you put Corinth and Athens together, you were getting a dynamic, paradoxical idea. A dynamic paradoxical idea, and I think your reflections on Luke and Athens really really do highlight that in the most beautiful way. 

David Harvey: 43:01

So that's it for this episode. We know that there's always more to explore and we encourage you to dive into the text and do that. If you liked this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you rated, reviewed or shared it. We also appreciate all of our listeners who financially support the show, sharing the weight of producing this podcast. If you'd like to support the show, visit twotextscom. But that is all for now, so until next time from John and I goodbye.