Trials of Partnership and Grace | Disruptive Presence 78

David Harvey: 0:04

Well, john, in our last episode in Acts chapter 15 we were talking about the reasons why Paul might not have wanted John also called Mark to journey with them in this new well, it's not a new mission, this, this return journey to see what what's going on in the churches that they've previously visited, and and we wondered about this question as to whether it was because Paul needed to know that everybody was was really committed to the mission, because Mark had obviously had some issues that in the past and of course, in reading Paul's letters we know that what Paul encountered on this coming trip was there had been some, there was some heavy work to do, right. So we sort of appreciate Paul's vulnerability and in not wanting to take too much risk. But perhaps what interests us in this story is this is this line in verse 39 of Acts, chapter 15. Is that now we've sort of thought about the Mark side of things?

David Harvey: 1:08

We get the Paul and Barnabas had such a sharp disagreement that they partied company. I mean, it's like, it's like a thunderbolt into Acts chapter 15. The whole passage has been about. The whole chapter has been about making it easy to keep people together, don't exclude Gentiles, don't cut people off, don't. And then now we get a sentence that Paul and Barnabas partied company and the. I mean this is like it's, like it's the breakup of the original Beatles, it's, it's, it's the the two people that we thought they're definitely not going to break up here. Here is exactly where this story takes us to. I mean, I don't think I'm over egging it to say that, no, that this is a bit of a thunder clap in the middle of Acts that we, you don't see coming.

John Andrews: 1:56

I'd for sure, absolutely do not, and and even the language used it really is this sort of explosive. Niv translates it's sharp disagreement, but it is an eruption. It is a very, very explosive situation that has two people that have serious miles on the board. I mean these people so I keep saying miles and many of our listeners will be thinking in kilometers, but these guys have serious mileage, kilometers on the board. They have been through thick and thin, they've come through hell and high water and they there's this eruption between them, over over, taking John Mark along and and we've sort of explored some of the issues around John Mark.

John Andrews: 2:47

But my goodness it it it's a sobering moment for me. I find this one of the most fascinating and slightly disturbing and awkward moments in the book of Acts were hold on a minute. My goodness to be a fly on the wall when these two men are are sort of going at it, that that that whatever they believed about John Mark was it seems that it could not be reconciled, that they couldn't find an answer to what to do with this young man and therefore ended up separating, parting company from one another. It's incredible moment. It really is just quite awkward as we look at that yeah, I think that it's.

David Harvey: 3:39

I mean, it's Barnabas, right. So he's introduced to us as the son of encouragement, so he comes to Paul when we wouldn't expect anyone to come to Paul. He, he backs people up, he aside. So so you sort of think leaning on Barnabas personality for a while. My goodness, this has. This is significant. I mean there's a part I mean loves that it plays to their personalities a little bit, that that we know from Paul the work is the thing, and so if there's a risk, if there's a risk that the work is going to be hindered, then Paul's, paul's nervous about that.

David Harvey: 4:15

I want to say that, with the last episode in mind, I don't think this is the harshness of Paul. I think this is some of the vulnerability of Paul. I just don't. I just don't know I can do this on my own. I don't know that I can do this if, like I would almost I want to keep on to this point is it possible that Paul's saying I need Mark. As a result, I need to know that Mark will be there for us. So so that's because the work can't be sacrificed.

David Harvey: 4:40

Then, on the Barnabas side, you've got this absolute willingness to not ever give up on a person and I love that about about Mark. I think that's an aspect of his sorry about Barnabas, sorry, not about Mark. I love that about Barnabas, this aspect of his personality, which is which is why we have Paul. He's the one willing to go and speak to the crazy persecutor. So Barnabas is not going to give up on people, paul is not going to give up the work. So it's that kind of what you do when a large object hips and immovable objects, sort of thing.

John Andrews: 5:18

Indeed, and I think that sets it at a low. There is a definite illusion to the personality types here, and we don't know exactly. I'm sure someone could do some sort of personality profiling assessment on these two people, but a lot does lean to their personality, I think it. I think the way you've summarized that it leans to much deeper, in that both men are coming to a sharp disagreement based on principle.

David Harvey: 5:44

Not core values.

John Andrews: 5:46

It is, it's their exactly right now. Will their personalities play into that? Well, of course it will, but but of course, up to this point, we've seen Barnabas incredibly generous, amenable, but courageous. I mean, barnabas has stuck his neck on the line for Paul. Barnabas has put himself out there in front of the apostles. Barnabas went and searched for Paul at Tarsus and brought him back to Antioch. I mean Barnabas, though we see him as a really tender, generous, encouraging man, a capital P pastor. In many ways. He's also profoundly courageous and principled.

John Andrews: 6:25

And we're seeing here Barnabas. Can I, can I say this, david? We're seeing Barnabas doing for John Mark exactly what he did for Paul. It's exactly the same. He stands up in front of the apostles and says, look, give this, give this man a chance, and in fact I'll vouch for him and I'll, I'll, I'll explain when he goes to Antioch. Hey, I know who could help us teach this untried teacher who's who's living back in his hometown in Tarsus, and Barnabas goes. So Barnabas is is, in principle, doing something for John Mark that he's actually, ironically, done for Paul himself.

John Andrews: 7:08

So so I think it's important for for us, for our listeners perhaps, to not see this as a personality clash. I don't think it is. I think this is, this is capital, p principle and values colliding here. Paul needs to know can I lean on this boy or not? And I'm not sure I can. And Barnabas is going. But look, if we don't allow young men, young women to have another go high on earth, are they ever going to achieve?

John Andrews: 7:41

And and maybe in the argument Paul Barnabas actually says to Paul hey, remember, not so long ago you were in this category, you were on the fringe and I came and got you. Now of course, luke, beautifully and and sensibly and generously, doesn't give us the details of the conversation, because that would not be prudent, but our, our sanctified imagination might want to suggest that Barney threw that in as a little bit of a reminder to Paul. So I think these two men are clashing on values, clashing on principles, clashing kind of use language like on ecclesiology, rather than clashing because they as men have fallen out. And I, like I'd like your take on this, david I I don't think they're falling out as men.

John Andrews: 8:32

I think they're disagreeing on principle and I think it's possible to disagree and not fall out. But of course that's a controversial conclusion there. I think the sharp disagreement is a principled one, and I think it's possible personally to say to someone I'm really, really sorry, I disagree with you so much on this that I cannot work with you, but that doesn't mean I no longer like you and I no longer want to see you succeed, but I can't agree.

David Harvey: 9:05

My goodness, john, that's not a comment, that's a series right there for our modern world. One of the things I'm deeply grateful for in my academic life. I did my doctoral work at University of Manchester, one of the things I used to love and I hope some of our listeners will forgive me on this, because I realize we all come from different backgrounds but we used to go to a seminar on Thursday afternoons. It was a seminar that was actually originated by FF Bruce, the great evangelical scholar. He'd started this years before and the tradition continued that students and professors would gather together on the Thursday afternoon and they would present their ideas to each other. Robust would be an understatement, john. I've presented papers in that forum and world-class scholars are then picking holes in your arguments and everything like that. It would become heated sometimes. People are telling you your work is wrong and you're defending that your work is right and people are weighing in with all things you should have done. One of the things I love about it was at the end of it, every single week, without fail, you would present your paper, there would be robust conversation and then they would roll in a teacart and everybody would have tea and biscuits together the very same people that had been disagreeing hugely moments before were now having tea and coffee together and talking about whatever was on their mind.

David Harvey: 10:40

I remember watching this and this is what saddens me. I remember watching this and thinking to myself I haven't seen this in the church, because what these men and women did world-class scholars that were there what they did was they realized this argument we're having right now is about our idea or our principle or our way of reading the text, but it's not about you as a person. I deeply respect you as a person and you're my friend because we work in the same corridor the ability to say let's be robust in our ideas, because we want our ideas to be tested and true and deep, but we're not now going to think bad of each other as a person. The arguments never descended into personal things. You never heard somebody say, well, you would say that and so on.

David Harvey: 11:31

Then, when I reflected and this was me as a man in my early 30s when I was doing this I reflected then on my church life and realized that so often, the moment somebody disagreed with somebody's theology, or the moment somebody disagreed with somebody's principle or even their values, very quickly an assessment was made on them as a person Quite regularly then. Because you think this, we can now no longer be friends. Actually, now I'll be mean about you and talk about you behind your back. I really saddens me that the academy was actually modeling. Now, of course, the academy can create some terrible situations as well. Don't get me wrong.

David Harvey: 12:14

We need to learn to be able to disagree on matters of principle, to disagree on matters of theology even, and not destroy one another. I would say in social media and in the church we are failing miserably on that. Even the fact that Paul can come back and say, send Mark to me because he's useful and profitable, tells me that Paul wasn't even making a dismissal of Mark as a person. He was just saying in this issue, at this particular time, I don't want to take it at risk with him. I mean, it's a series, john, to talk about, but I almost would say what you've thrown away as a comment.

David Harvey: 12:58

There is one of the cultural issues of this time. We just don't know how to disagree with one another anymore and we're constantly drawing lines, constantly separating. Maybe that's why it's so powerful that this passage is here. After this big council on unity we now get. Sometimes unity looks like this that we haven't been able to work together. But we're not. There is no letter where Paul writes his exposé on what actually happened in the Barnabas issue. He is still the son of encouragement and they are still committed to the gospel work. Eventually, paul's like you know what. It's time to work with Mark. Now make sure he comes along.

David Harvey: 13:49

I think it's powerful, John.

John Andrews: 13:50

Yeah, I think, just in the same way that you encouraged us in our last podcast, to think about Paul's vulnerability rather than arrogance or harshness. This is not Paul dropping the hammer on someone because they failed. This is Paul concerned. Actually, is he really up to the challenge? Has he got our back? We have to cover the weaknesses.

John Andrews: 14:14

I think there's a way of reading this that allows us to see a sharp disagreement without dishonoring one another, without assassinating one another. Yes, of course, what's lovely in the context of the scriptures as a whole, which is not afraid to expose people's vulnerabilities or weaknesses or mistakes. There isn't a hint in the rest of the book of Acts or in the rest of the New Testament of animosity between these two men. There has been a disagreement, but not assassination. There has been. I'm not sure we can square this circle. So what are we going to do? Yes, now the sort of matter of factness of verse 39 makes it feel a bit cold. Yes, yes, I think even the bits that follow suggest it's not as cold as we think. If you look at like, I mean I'm jumping forward to come back. Forgive me, david, but it says in verse 40, cus Barnabas took John Mark and went off the side. It said verse 40 says Paul, however, having chosen Silas, went out, having been committed to the grace of the Lord by the brothers.

John Andrews: 15:36

No, here's my thought If this was a nasty breakup, if this is toxic and bad and let me use that language like wicked, which is is amusing in a biblical context, if this is really bad behavior between Paul and Barnabas, I'm not sure we could get Paul and Silas then commended to the grace of God by the brothers. Is that fair? So if you read just 39, it sounds like they have a fallout and I said I'm never talking to you again and we're off because, because Paul Luke is trying to summarize, he's not ignoring the awkward moment, but he's trying to summarize it without undressing anybody. These two men are disagreeing on a point of principle. So if you only had 39, it feels a bit cold.

John Andrews: 16:33

You go into 40, you're going oh, hold on a minute. Commended by the grace of God. I wonder, does that suggest that, although the boys and girls at Antioch have just witnessed a sharp disagreement, they have not witnessed Can I use this language David, on holy, unrighteous, dishonorable behavior? I could be overcooking that, my friend, but I think it's there. I think there's some redemption even within the text itself.

David Harvey: 17:08

I mean, I think it's interesting that you still got this. The Barnabas is like. I think there's almost a sense in this and I could now be overcooking this as well that that what Luke's telling us is Barnabas was right. I think it's a very subtle way Paul's the one that actually the work needs to be done on here, because he's the one that needs the commendation. So there's no need for a commendation on Barnabas. I think he wants to make sure, even though Paul's not trusting and of course, I think this is significant because when you get to Paul and his letters being your trust is such a significant issue for Paul you trust faith, fidelity, belief, so Paul is not extending grace and fidelity to Mark. So we need to know, as the reader, that the church decided yeah, okay, we get this and this is okay. So you're now commended back to God's grace and all of that, I think. I mean, I think what's fascinating in that is this back in verse 38, you've got this strange. Just as you were talking there, I saw something back in 38, which I know we talked more about in the last episode. But now that you said this, I want to circle back. Notice that Paul didn't think him worthy because he deserted them in Pamphlia. But notice that the Greek word that we get here for deserted apostanta, which is where we eventually end up the word apostasy from. So now I don't think at this stage in the Greek tradition it's carrying the doctrinal sense of it. But I love this notion that Paul is saying that Mark was unfaithful, but Paul's response Mark was untrustworthy. Paul's response is to not put trust into Mark.

David Harvey: 19:18

Barnabas is the son of encouragement. However, barnabas is the one who says here's my money in laser at the apostles feet, right when he's no idea exactly what's going to happen there. Barnabas is the one who turns up and defends Saul, having him just jumped out of a basket and escaped. He's the one that says we must trust this man to the apostles. So he's the one that says this is a good man. So Barnabas is always sort of slightly ahead of Paul. He's slightly ahead of Paul, just calling him into grace. And Paul models, and I love Paul. So hopefully people forgive me a negative point about Paul here. Paul models the world, and I don't mean the evil, I mean the, just the brokenness of the world. You've been untrustworthy so I'm not going to trust you.

John Andrews: 20:14

Right.

David Harvey: 20:14

And this is where your word grace interests me here. So you've, you've apostatized, you've stepped away and abandoned us. So I'm not going to trust you. Well, this is the cycle of the world. It just keeps then perpetuating Trust. Lack of trust grows more trust. How do we break this? How do we change this? How do we have trust where there is no trust? Well, somebody's got to have grace.

David Harvey: 20:34

And now we get Barnabas back to doing what Barnabas. Yeah, apostles, this was the persecutor. But if we don't trust that God can work in Paul, then what do we even believe? I mean, again, I'm putting words in Barnabas's mouth and the apostles realized, yep, you're right, we should trust Paul, right? And so Barnabas extends the hand of grace. Why is this important? Because this is the gospel.

David Harvey: 20:56

You are untrustworthy, I am untrustworthy, but God, what does it? Paul says later but God cannot be untrustworthy, he cannot deny himself. So Barnabas models Jesus in this by by almost. I can imagine the conversation. You're 100% right, paul. He did abandon us. You're 100% right.

David Harvey: 21:14

We don't know if that means he's trustworthy, but you know, I obviously my dad often says this to me whenever I'm in some sort of conflict situation or there's something happening in the world and we see people repay evil with evil. My dad has this phrase where he always says but if we do that, then we're no better than everything else. And the call of Jesus is always to step into the grace, isn't it? And I can imagine Barnabas and Paul having the example. Yeah, sure, paul, he was untrustworthy, but if we don't be a people of trust, then how will we ever live in the grace of Jesus? We've got to keep extending it, keep passing it out to people.

David Harvey: 21:54

As a side note on that, john, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. But let me just throw this in really quickly as well. What is amazing is we keep saying we're imagining how Barnabas would say it. What's amazing is we never hear Barnabas speak for himself. In all of the acts, all the things we know about Barnabas are based on how he behaves, which is probably a whole series in itself as well.

John Andrews: 22:15

It's quite, it's absolutely quite staggering because it's funny on the side note, like weird tangent. I was reflecting with someone over Christmas and, anna, I said it's quite amazing, in the birth stories of Matthew and Luke, joseph never speaks, yes, but Joseph is known for his actions. It's just quite staggering. It's a quite staggering idea. And Barnabas is the same.

John Andrews: 22:42

It's quite amazing here that Barnabas extends grace and I love the way you put that. I thought that was just superb that he is extending a grace to John Mark in a way that says, okay, I'll take the risk, I'll put myself out there for him, and then it's I've never seen it like that before and I'd have to reflect on that. Then it's the community that extend the grace to Paul. Yeah, so that's quite a fascinating little little insight there that I'd never, ever considered before. So I'd have to.

John Andrews: 23:24

I'm going to go and sort of reflect on that again because I think that's absolutely, absolutely powerful and I love the sort of idea, just at a practical level, that Barnabas, when he takes John Mark, they sail for Cyprus. Now, of course, there's a sense in which it seems like Barnabas is definitely retracing the steps of the first journey, at least the first steps of that journey where he goes. After that, the book of Acts remains silent. But I like the fact that Cyprus is a sort of a safe place. It's it's his home, it will be familiar territory for John Mark and it becomes a sort of a okay. We've just had a bit of a moment with Paul, let's just catch our breath.

John Andrews: 24:16

Yes, that's retrace our steps, but that's go somewhere where perhaps we can just gather ourselves Someone were we're appreciated, loved and accepted, and just where we can, we can sort of put some fuel in the tank for the next stage of the journey. And again, I could be reading too much into that, but it's interesting Paul takes Silas and sort of heads back to his home territory. So if you look at the map, paul is going north of Antioch and sort of west towards a city, but he actually he's going towards his home city of Tarsus and there's probably reason for that. He's going inland by staying inland, whereas a Barnabas is going across the ocean and to Cyprus. And again you sort of see this, this moment of grace, even in the practicality. I get it, I could be overreaching there, but. But I saw that in a slightly different way just listening to you speak of the wonder. A wonder, is that a reflection where they've consideration?

David Harvey: 25:22

Yeah, yeah, I'd never thought about that, john. So I, I, I like it, though, and I think there's I mean, there's just some really, really kind of encouraging things for us, as you say, to see how this is modeled, how we, how we navigate through this. There's a careful reading of this, pasturally. There's some real interesting pastoral implications in what you're saying there about how we, how we care for ourselves, how we encourage one another, how we I mean how we even can I say, bless disagreement, right, I actually I think that heading head into Cyprus, as you're saying, paul's going on. Look, the end result is the church he's worse, strengthened.

David Harvey: 26:12

But I, I heard of a church once. Every time anybody left for whatever reason at all, the pastor, the pastor had a moment with them where they bless them with the congregation Right and, and like even when it was a case of people had got to the point where we've actually fallen out with you and it's time for us to move on, the pastor would invite them and say, well, that's, I know, we know I'm sad about that, but we're still going to bless you before you leave, and there's that sort of pastoral weight in that. Isn't there that Mark needs looking after Barnabas looks after. Paul and Silas need to know that they need looking after and that we all all need grace in that. I don't know if that's kind of related to what you're thinking about with this journey thing, but I feel like there's just a gorgeous little human insight that you've got there that maybe Luke's hinting towards us.

John Andrews: 27:09

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, and of course I mean what's ultimately spectacular, providentially here, is that you end up with two groups or partnerships now Strengthening the churches that allow its implicit. It's implied that Barnabas and Mark will do that via Cyprus. It's explicit that Paul and Silas are doing that through Silicia and in Syria. And what, what could have felt like it at verse 39, a terrible sort of moment of failure in the providence of God, becomes a doubling up of of energy and effort and mischievous impact.

John Andrews: 28:00

And and again, david, I'm deeply encouraged by that I've been around the church long enough. I love the church. I mean, I love Jesus and I love, I love his church. But I've been around the church long enough to know the good, the bad and the ugly, and we all have stories we can tell. But here's something I have seen I became a follower of Jesus at the age of eight and I'm 57. So almost 50 years of following Jesus. And what I've seen in those years consistently is the Lord's ability to redeem mess, the Lord's ability to recover what looks like an impossible recovery. The Lord's ability to take something and you go oh, my goodness, what good could come out of this. And then something spectacularly good comes out of it and, if not immediately, eventually.

John Andrews: 28:59

And I don't want to minimize the disagreement and I don't want our listeners to in any way hear what I'm not saying. I am not in any way excluding bad behavior or abusive behavior, so do not hear that. Do not hear that In the context of Paul and Barnabas. What I'm referring to is moments where it looks like oh my goodness, we failed, oh my goodness, we've damaged the reputation of the name of the Lord. Oh my goodness, good people are being bruised in the midst of this and yet the Lord, in his providential, magnificent, loving kindness and faithfulness, ends up doubling the work and ends up doing something spectacular through both groups here, and I leave Chapter 15 profoundly optimistic and encouraged because the Lord is still at work, even when we as humans, every night again look it up.

David Harvey: 30:00

Well, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening and we hope that you enjoyed it. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something we said, you can reach out to us on podcast at 2texcom or by liking and following the 2tex podcast on Facebook, instagram and Twitter. If you really did enjoy the episode, then we'd love it if you left a review or a comment where you're listening from, and if you really enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend? Don't forget that you can listen to all of our podcasts from this season and others at www.2texcom. But that is it for now, so until next time, goodbye.