The Intricacies of Trust | Disruptive Presence 77

John Andrews: 0:52

Hi David. Well we are. We're still in chapter 15 of the Book of Acts in our series, the Disruptive Presence, and we've just been enjoying it so much. But what excitement we had coming out of this amazing discussion about the Council of Jerusalem, the courage of those believers to not make it difficult for someone to come to faith, and it felt like when we left our last podcast. The trajectory was just upward and onward and there was a real optimism coming out of that Council Silas, paul Barnabas returning to Antioch, and just the feel that, my goodness, the mission both to Jew and Gentile is on, and a very, very optimistic and positive feel. To all of that and I don't know about you, I was again greatly encouraged by some of the well-worn ideas that are captured for us in Acts 15.

David Harvey: 1:53

Yes, and fundamental ideas, I think as well, for what it is for us to be Christians. When I read Acts 15 and was reflecting on it, even after we'd published those episodes, there was that thought that we really are reading. I mean, I say we. I can't speak for everybody that's listening to the podcast. Maybe some of us are from a Jewish background, but for those of us who are not Jewish, those last few episodes are really the foundational moments of why we are Christian. Right, we have become Christian because of the discussions that happened in Acts, chapter 15, where the discussions have gone a different way. There's whole questions about whether the faith would have ever made it to us, and so that sort of lands kind of interestingly for us, doesn't it?

John Andrews: 2:43

It does, it does, and it really reminded me again of that the sense that that early community of faith that followed Jesus really wanted a one person community. They didn't want a Jewish church and a Gentile church. They wanted a church united in Christ, truly made one in Christ, where Gentiles could draw from the incredible heritage in the Jewish route and that the Jewish world could see the ultimate fulfilment of the globalisation of this amazing promise of being a blessing to the nations of the world through Christ Jesus. So to me, just a great reminder of what God intended and, I believe, what the Lord is still on with across the earth, even though it's not always easy and there are many, many challenges within that.

David Harvey: 3:36

It's funny how we sort of you know. Why are you a Christian, somebody might ask, and we say because of Jesus, because of and this is really good and true, like and I'm not in saying anything about them not being true, but I also just was, I was chuckling to myself as reflected on these episodes about as I was. We read that letter and I thought it's, it's, it's I hope everyone are forgiving for saying it like this, but it's. It's decidedly unsexy to think that maybe also a major reason why I am a Christian is because there was a council once where a couple of people held a position and said, no, this is what is important, and that was held to be true.

John Andrews: 4:16

Yeah, amazing, amazing, and and I love the optimism with which we left right, right at the end of our sort of mini section, within X 15, verse 35. But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch where they, and many others, taught and preached the word of the Lord. I love that. So. So we're seeing that this sort of widening of both opportunity and responsibility out of this council, and and we assume from that that people from a Jewish background who've become followers of Jesus are also preaching and teaching the word of the Lord, not just, it's not just Paul and it's not just Barnabas, and so there's there's a real joy there. And then, and then we had a bit of a gear change. David, did you notice as well?

David Harvey: 5:05

we didn't say this, by the way, we didn't say this before you changed gear, the. There's this gorgeous little, and I know people who will tell me I'm, I'm, I'm hanging too much on it and I'm not hanging anything on it here. I just think it's neat that so Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch. In verse 35 of X, 15 it says where they and many others taught and preached the word of God. Right, yeah, but now a very minor Greek lesson in classical Greek, and there are discussions as to whether, as to how much, this is observed in New Testament Greek. Right, it is definitely observed in a few places, but there are two different words for the word other. Right, there's, there's allos and heteros. Right now, please, please, please. I'm going to say for the third time we can we can hang too much on this, listeners, so be careful with this. But allos is the word of, is the word other, but it means other of a similar kind. So if you said, oh, look, there's a dog, I know here comes another dog you would use the word allos, right, because it's, it's still a dog, right? But if you said, oh, here's an animal and it was a dog. And oh, here comes another animal and that's a cat. You would use the word heteros right from the, from the hetero. It would be with a certain notion there.

David Harvey: 6:15

Now, what's what I think is really exciting for me about that is that here, right, it's they and many others heteros, others of different kinds, taught and preached the word of the Lord. This is not a doctrinal point, so I don't feel like it's such a big issue that we want to say it's interesting that Luke chooses heteros there, because the whole conversation has been about Difference, different people, different contexts. What do we do with Gentiles when we are Jews? All these various bits and pieces, and I'm therefore I just like the fact that what we encounter is there were others Different who were teaching and preaching, and I just wonder sometimes if Luke's just being just a little, a little, you know, yeah, teasing us with that sense of oh, there's something a little different going on here.

John Andrews: 7:09

Does that make sense? It does it. I've never seen that before in that way and it would certainly. It would certainly be a lovely sort of but nuance in terms of the trajectory of where the whole council is going and this, this idea of Making it easy for others to come. So I love that. Never seen that before. Great spot and yeah, and again it adds to this sense of that. The message seems to be expanding, the messengers are expanding.

John Andrews: 7:39

You feel like we've come out of the council a Jerusalem feeling. Oh, it's not just Paul and Barnabas banging the drum on this. It feels like a whole bunch of other people now are jumping on this and there's a genuine enthusiasm and acceptance of this idea. This isn't isn't just a bunch of people sort of towing the line because they have to, because the Council of Jerusalem said so, but there's a sense in which people are buying into this. Now, yes, and that really is, is lovely and and it's a I sort of hinted at there which is a bit we're going to read today. I think we had a bit of a gear change Then in verse 36, so the, the whole sense of trajectory of chapter 15 feels come on, we are on, and then Luke gives us a story which in some ways he just could have ignored.

John Andrews: 8:30

He just could have put this to the side and thought you know what, it would be great to leave on a really high note. But I can't ignore this, and the fact that it's included within the text, I think, says something about why Luke waits this story and why it may be important in maybe other stories in the New Testament. So we're we're going to try and reflect on this awkward little gear change, as I've described it, and this incident with two long-term friends, paul and Barnabas so and and I wondered a little bit which is why I thought, should I mention this thing that I spotted about last time's episode?

David Harvey: 9:09

but it's. It actually speaks to almost what we're about to jump into that the acts 15 Council Chooses not to normalize, not to make everybody the same, but to live with otherness as Part of our, our kind of Christian journey. But of course that comes with a cost, right? If we, if we're not going to insist that everybody's the same, we're gonna have disagreements from time to time about things, aren't we? And and I think that might be a good intro then to Chapter 15, in verse 36 and we're gonna read through to verse 41 here, it says this Sometimes later, paul said to Barnabas Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preach the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.

David Harvey: 9:53

Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark with them, but Paul did not think it wise to take him because he had deserted them in Pamphlia and had not continued with them in the work. They had such a sharp disagreement that they partied company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus and Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord, he went through Syria and Silesia strengthening the churches.

John Andrews: 10:26

Okay, I mean, you know you to try and stay connected to our, our previous trajectory.

John Andrews: 10:36

This is a really awkward moment because you've had Paul and, of course, barnabas fighting hard for the inclusion of those who would be considered excluded, and then we get Paul and Barnabas sort of falling out or disagreeing on whether a young man who's already a follower of Jesus gets to go with them a second time round, and it really does. It is a jarring moment, right, it's like for those of us who can remember driving cars with manual gearboxes. I know many of us have gone to automatics but there was the odd moment where, in trying to reach for fifth gear, you accidentally stuck it in the third and it's like, oh, oh, that hurts and the car, you know, is juttering and everyone in the car has now whiplash because you hit the wrong gear and it does feel. It feels like, oh, we've hit something and it's so significant we really can't ignore it. It's not like we could just skip past this and that's just bounce on the chapter 16. So it's something that can't be ignored, and it seems that Dr Luke doesn't want to ignore it as well.

David Harvey: 11:52

Yes, no, absolutely. And it's like it feels it feels out of place. At some point You're like, well, this is where you choose to do this, and part of me thinks this is because Luke is just telling the story as it unfolds. So we did that, and then this is the next thing to talk about, which we've talked in other episodes, about how Luke doesn't hide things from us. He's quite happy to keep us linked to the story.

David Harvey: 12:19

But I think one of the things I appreciate I mean there's multiple things I appreciate about these five verses but I think one of the things I appreciate is that this is a little bit of what it's like to be in ministry. There's questions of and I think we can explore these in this episode. There's questions of why is Paul more risk adverse than Barnabas in this particular case? What is it that's causing that? But actually, I think what I love at the start of this is that it's not easy.

David Harvey: 12:56

Just simply saying let's go serve God doesn't mean that that will all go smoothly and any of us who have ever attended a church have have known the fallouts of just putting people together around the table but doesn't necessarily mean that everybody's going to get on well there. Most of our listeners that have had some involvement with the church have probably seen separations happen in the church. There was a handful of leaders and at some point one of them left to go do something else, and the roots of that is sometimes well, we just wasn't quite seeing eye to eye on certain things. So there's a profound gratefulness. I think we have to look that one of the things we can't say about acts is and all the relationships were perfect which, if acts did say that, all that would leave us with is a feeling of inadequacy all of the time. If the great Paul, whose letters we read almost weekly in church, can't figure out an argument with Barnabas, the son of encouragement, then you have to be a little hopeful that we are not always going to figure out our problems.

John Andrews: 14:06

You think that's fair to say. As to what's going on, I think you've put that beautifully and again, I'm encouraged that Luke includes the story because it brings some context, the previous information we know about John Mark leaving them back in Pamphylia and Perga and we've touched on that way back a million years ago when we reflected on chapter 13 of acts, and even though now we're a couple of years on and a lot of runs on the board, there's still something going on in Paul, to use your language. It makes him risk averse or makes him resistant to young John Mark in a way. We go on oh, that's really interesting. And so you're getting this and I wouldn't want to over categorize them too hard at this stage. But if you were looking for a template of an Ephesians 411 pastor, I think Barnabas is the man. It's interesting.

John Andrews: 15:13

I've scoured the New Testament and I think you get apostles named, prophets named, evangelists named, teachers named. There aren't many people exclusively and explicitly named as pastor, so we have shepherd and elder type language going on. Barnabas earlier on, of course, in Acts 14, I think he's named as an apostle. But if you were looking for a DNA template to clone a pastor, barnabas Barney would be your I mean in the New Testament I'd be reaching for Barney. Of course, outside of Jesus, I'd be reaching for Barney. He's like he's out there as a, as a capital P pastor in shepherd and you're getting this. He wants to take John Mark along for the second visit. It's something he really wants to do and there's a sense in which he wants to give this boy another go.

John Andrews: 16:08

Paul is completely resistant and it it causes me to think why is Paul so resistant to that idea? Paul has a track record later in his life of of being patient and tolerant with people and giving young men a bit of a go and allowing people on his team that maybe others wouldn't have given a chance to, as we'll see in very next chapter. But but it's it's. Why is he so resistant to John Mark? And I think that that's what's going on in Paul, that's causing him to say no, absolutely no, never, ever, ever. And in fact it's such a strong no that I'm prepared to jeopardize my relationship, ministry and personal, with Barnabas. To make my point, I was pretty strong right, yes, yes, and I mean I.

David Harvey: 17:03

The more I sit with this and think about all of the various involvements in it, I I almost want to ask the question of the text a different way around than I have across the years. So the way I've always been introduced to this, I remember hearing this preached in church as I was a little boy. It was Mark has failed and therefore Paul doesn't want somebody who has failed them on the trip. So Paul is the harsh one who's not allowing second chances, right, and? But I was looking at this sort of way that it's phrased and thinking actually we're imposing a little bit of that reading, because all we actually get is Paul didn't think it was wise to take care, so it's not that because he deserted them, and so we tend to think about this of oh, because he deserted them, paul said no. Paul actually says no because of what's happened.

David Harvey: 18:13

And I just wonder if what we're seeing here is not the harshness of Paul, but it's the vulnerability of Paul, paul saying I'm not sure I can trust him to not do that again, and I'm not sure I mean I'm putting words in Paul's mouth here, but I'm not sure if we lose him I can then do this. So it's not a case of no second chances in my missions trip, but I'm going to need the people that we take with us, and so I need to know that the people we take with us are going to be there for us. Otherwise, I'm not sure I can rely on that, and I have in mind Paul's future, where he's in prison and the people that he's traveling with are the ones bringing him food. And so is there a way to read this text that says Paul's problem isn't that he's harsh and doesn't want someone, that's failed, and actually that Paul's weakness is being asserted here and he's saying I need people who help carry me through this, and if those people are maybe not going to be there, I'm not sure I can get through this, and I'm reading a lot into silence.

David Harvey: 19:27

I don't think that's there in Acts 15, but equally in Acts 15 I don't think it's also there to Paul saying no second chances, right, and in this sentence, that Paul thinks is not wise. But the Paul that we meet in the letters and eventually, much later in the letters regarding Mark himself, is a Paul who needs people alongside him on the journey. So there's a part of me looks at it and goes I can kind of postulate an idea that maybe this is Paul's vulnerability coming through a little bit. I don't know what you think of that, but it just is in my yeah, it's interesting.

John Andrews: 20:04

It's interesting, david. I love your take on the Greek on it as well. It's interesting if you skip the verse 38. I think that leans into that a little bit. So it's not just that Paul is saying I don't want John Mark because he failed and so it's an issue of failure. But there's a sense in which Paul is concerned. He's not up to it, he's not.

John Andrews: 20:29

So it's interesting if you, if you look at verse 38, paul, one way to read that Paul, however, sort of saw John Mark as not fit or thought him not fit, having deserted them. So if you put those, if you put those two ideas together, that Paul is still a bit angsty over the desertion back in 13. Yes, and therefore he could be nervous that John Mark, if squeezed again, yes, could run again, which would tie in with nine. The NIV translates it he thought it not wise, but but a stronger translation thought not fit is the is the idea is am I reading that right or am I? Have I got that wrong?

John Andrews: 21:20

So so it's the. It's leaning into your conclusion that Paul isn't just writing someone off because they failed. He is concerned of with their own fitness if put under pressure again, if he's deserted before he could desert again is essentially it. Now I think that leans into your idea of Paul saying listen, if we're going to go into battle again, I just need to know you're not going to run. I need to know you're locked and loaded, I need to know you're strong, rather than actually know you failed once you're done. I don't think Paul is saying that, and certainly that wouldn't have been my view of that. But but I think verse 38 gives a bit of sort of technical weight to the, to the fact this isn't just about John Mark, it's about Paul's concerns that they could be let down again. Is that? Is that fair or too much?

David Harvey: 22:17

Yes, no, I think that that it's that there's this sense and it's a very, it's a very interesting Greek sentence construction actually, because because if you were almost Like the word haxios, which I'm reading that correctly, there is at some level it's countworthy but esteemable. It would be another way, kind of like. I like the notion of yeah, paul. So what you get in the Greek is this strange sense that Paul didn't think him count-worthy-able to take with them, right. So I think if you were translating this I mean, this is a terrible term because we could get lost in translation theory for a second but if you were to translate this more on a word-for-word basis, what this sentence would look like is it would say Paul didn't think him count-worthy-able to take with them, right. But in between count-worthy and take with them, you'd have an open bracket right and the open bracket would say because he deserted them in pamphly and had not continued in the work, close bracket to take with them, right. It's as if Luke wants just to remind you why Paul thinks he's not count-worthy-able.

David Harvey: 23:36

And it's because of the fact that when the chips were down, mark turned around and went another way, and clearly it thinks that Paul doesn't want that to happen again.

David Harvey: 23:48

Now it's interesting, of course, that we can see from Paul's letters, like in Galatians and Corinth, going back to visit the churches that you've been to before is not always an easy process, right, because you turn back and there's a bit of chaos and things have not been well received in your absence. So I think if we hear, let's go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we've preached the word previously, as a nice little missionary trip popping in on all your friends, paul's clearly expecting this could be just as tough as the first run that we make. So I don't want to put Mark in the situation that he might bail again and I wonder again, you're leading into the silence. Is this Paul's to your point saying? And that then became very hard for the work. And what we have seen in Paul is that anything that hinders the work is considered a non-negotiable forehead, indeed, and like he can't risk that Indeed.

John Andrews: 24:42

And again, even the way verse 38 finishes, I think, leans into that he had not continued with them in the work. So it's a big idea. As for Paul, I mean I've noticed in a lot of Paul's writings throughout the New Testament you'll be better placed in me in this but Paul loves the idea of fellow workers, the, the Sunergoy that work with him, work side by side with him, and he often refers to people tenderly as his Sunergoy, his fellow workers. And when I read that and heard it's like almost like Paul has identified him, I'm not sure I can trust him to be a Sunergoss, to be one who works alongside me. He deserted us last time, he left his post last time, which is the implication there, and therefore I'm not sure I can trust him to be a fellow worker again, which for Paul in the New Testament writings he refers to people like Apaphroditus, timothy, silas, titus they're all referred to as Sunergoss in Paul's world fellow worker.

John Andrews: 25:59

But here, in this sense, it's like Paul is saying John Mark, at this stage in his journey, is not in that category and I cannot trust him. And there is of course within that although it feels harsh to me and you in the 21st century there is, of course, a validity of opinion within that that someone can say look, he's a good lad, he's a nice person. I know you love him, barnabas, I know he's a member of your family or extended family, but I am not sure I can lean on him. And if I'm not sure I can lean on him then I'm not sure I want him to go along with us. And therefore it's not personal in the sense that he's not attacking John Mark for failure. Yes, but he's concerned that John Mark may not be up to being one of his Sunergoy, his fellow workers and I heard the echo of Paul's other New Testament language in chapter 38 with that he deserted them but did not continue in the work with them.

David Harvey: 27:09

It makes sense as we talk about Sunergoys, the working those who work with. Paul loves his Sunergoys. It's interesting that in verse 38, it's not only is Mark not a Sunergoi, actually Luke says he's not even a Sunelthon, right. So it's Sunelthon to come with. So it's not even that Mark isn't working with them. The problem Paul has is he didn't even come with them, and the Greek structure is interesting. It's that he didn't even come with them for the purpose of the work. So it's almost to your point. Paul's like. What I need is co-workers. Mark wasn't even a co-traveller and I think your point is right. There are these times we have to like if this work is beyond him, and we can go back and listen to earlier episodes in this series where we explore some of our thinking about why might it be that Mark didn't come? And all those things may be valid for Mark. The key point is the work was going to be highly impacted by Mark coming along and Barnabas and Paul are going to be impacted. So I hear that, john. I hear that.

John Andrews: 28:26

And, I think, the other. We think and we spent a bit of time on this in a previous discussion but, like in between Mark leaving them and this moment, paul and Barnabas have had a few kick-ins, they've been beaten up, they've been threatened, they've been persecuted. Paul was stoned and left for dead. So actually, if Mark was wobbling at Perga and they hadn't really hit any major nasty, physical persecution at that stage, then Paul's going well. Okay, the boy deserted us when it was relatively easy. From the moment he deserted us to now We've had a few beatings. Is he really up to it? So I sort of I I'm like you, I'm with you on this, david.

John Andrews: 29:19

I don't want Paul to be portrayed as some sort of ogre here, some nasty, intolerant man. I think what Paul is is absolutely single-minded. I think he's committed to the work of the Lord. He's committed to such an extent that he's able to declare in other parts of the scripture I've literally preached to the regions beyond. I've sort of finished my work there. Paul's relentless in his commitment and he's more concerned about are his fellow workers up to it? Yes, and therefore, where he has doubt, he calls it. I think this is sort of partly what you've got here.

David Harvey: 30:06

And then, of course, not only is that what we expect of Paul at some level and we're going to see we've mentioned it in previous episodes but keep it on the line. Eventually we see from Paul in the future, mark is useful. So Mark is clearly not blacklisted by Paul forever. Mark goes on a journey, develops a way of being that and it's interesting. Like I would say just a personal theory, although it's shared by others it's fascinating to me that the kind of long-standing tradition of the church has been that Peter is the major source for Mark's gospel. But there are several moments of Mark's gospel chapter eight being one that really comes to mind right now that Mark to me shows very strong evidence of Pauline theological influence, and so my little kind of personal theory is that not only does Paul end up back working with Mark, but becomes a huge influence on Mark as well.

David Harvey: 31:24

When you see there's bits of Mark, a overlay into Paul's theology in Romans and Galatians, so easily that Mark's seeming to want you to draw those connections. Even so, I think this story ends up in them clearly working together in the future. I think it is possible to sit with this, not to rescue Paul from being hard and say no, we're not taking Mark. But I think it's important that we never teach this text to say that Mark was simply excluded because of what he did in the past. I think it's more that we're saying what he did in the past created a nervousness in Paul as to whether that would happen again, and at this particular time Paul couldn't carry that risk. I think maybe that's how I think to summarize what we're saying. That's beautiful.

John Andrews: 32:19

That's beautiful and in fact, as you were talking, I just flicked over to make sure I got the quote right, just flicked over to 2 Timothy 4 where Paul mentions John Mark and he says get Mark and bring him with you, speaking to Luke, because he is helpful to me in my ministry or profitable to me.

John Andrews: 32:43

And I can't help now read that that, having us just looked at 1538, the unfitness of John Mark, and now Paul is saying the profitability, the usefulness of John Mark in 2 Timothy, I mean my goodness, especially if Luke's around with Paul and Luke is writing an account, this whole journey with John Mark still a pretty fresh one, and you sort of think, my goodness, is Paul deliberately picking his words there really carefully about Mark, he's now profitable, when I had sort of thought I'm not sure he's up to it, but now I'm saying he really really is, it's not. I think you can read 2 Timothy in isolation and it's a most, a most beautiful tip of the hat to Barnabas and John Mark and saying what a, what a great journey you've made. But if you read 2 Timothy 4 with the echo of X, 1538 in the background, from unfit to profitable, I think that's absolutely unmissable and gorgeous and maybe Paul in humility going. Do you know what? I wasn't sure about the boy, but he's done good and Barnabas, barnabas called it right?

David Harvey: 34:17

Well, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening and we hope that you enjoyed it. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something we said, you can reach out to us on podcast at 2Texcom or by liking and following the 2Tex podcast on Facebook, instagram and Twitter. If you really did enjoy the episode, then we'd love it if you left a review or a comment where you're listening from, and if you really enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend? Don't forget that you can listen to all of our podcasts from this season and others at www.2Texcom. But that is it for now, so until next time, goodbye.