Defining Salvation for the Church | Disruptive Presence 73

[00:00:00] John: Well, David, it is great chatting with you again. And, , the last time we were chatting Paul and Barnabas had circled all the way back to Syria and Antioch back home and were reporting all the amazing things that the Lord had done in this incredible two year, what sometimes is referred to as a missionary journey.

[00:00:26] And my goodness, they, they, they must have been incredible stories that they told. But but we're about to take a sharp turn again. What, what, it all looks like it's going great. It looks like it's working together. And then well, the world of Antioch gets disturbed by by visitors who raise a certain question.

[00:00:46] And, and in a sense, this question has been brewing indirectly. in, in the sort of the two year journey of Paul and Barnabas, in terms of even how they've encountered opposition from perhaps Jewish audiences, in terms of an understanding of how Gentiles can become followers of the Messiah and being grafted in to this covenant.

[00:01:09] So, so it's about to explode, really. It's about, it's about to take a, a different sort of a turn as we hit chapter 15.

[00:01:19] David: The opening couple of words in the NIV of Acts chapter 15 are certain people. Came down from Judea and before I read the text, even there's that reflection hits me about how often our lives are turned around by certain people. And I mean, and I don't mean not to form names there. Like I don't, I'm not asking any listener to go come up with that list of those certain people, but, but actually almost the innocuousness of it, people that at the time, and again, this could be misquoted, so I hope no one does, but people at the time who seem almost insignificant, right? Just certain people, nobody even bothered to write down their names. Just some people turned up, but then chaos erupted as a result of this. And is this not the story of acts at some level that seemingly innocuous moments become hugely, hugely significant one, just, just head into the temple for the day, going up on the roof to pray that all of a sudden lead to these huge moments.

[00:02:17] And now we have certain people come down with a particular message that they're teaching. And, we're going to see the, the, the, the huge, perhaps the first proper, really serious dispute and counsel of the church.

[00:02:33] John: Indeed, indeed. And it is a serious moment, isn't it, David? We are. We're hitting something like pretty colossal here that depending on how how the world looks within the Church of Jesus Christ at the end of chapter 15 will depend on sort of what the future looks like. This is literally a massively pivotal moment that we are building to and, and so what we're about to consider over the next few podcasts in chapter 15 literally shaped history,

[00:03:04] David: yes,

[00:03:04] John: In many ways.

[00:03:05] I mean, we, we could, we could be looking at a split into a Jewish and Gentile church here if this is not managed carefully, which would have been a bit of a catastrophe for everyone involved. So it's a bit of a moment as we enter chapter 15, we do so with excitement and a little bit of fear and trepidation as we handle this incredible text.

[00:03:27] So David, you're going to read it for us, the first few verses of chapter 15, and we will jump straight in.

[00:03:33] David: Yeah, it's a long text, so we'll probably read it in sections as we work through it. So today let's do Acts chapter 15 verses 1 through 2 verse, 4 or 5, Let's let's, let's do that. And, so it says this, certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers. And then the text gives us what they were teaching.

[00:03:55] It says, unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved. This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed along with some other believers to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

[00:04:17] The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

[00:04:38] But then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law. I'll

[00:04:52] John: Okay. I mean, we, it, it, absolutely. It, you, it's not like Luke sort of gently drops us into this, does he? We're hit right in the face with this thing, confronted with these incredible words. Unless you are circumcised according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved. Wow. So, so

[00:05:17] David: also a slight increase then as well, that they head down to Jerusalem. And this is why I thought it might help to read verse five, even though it takes us into the next stage. Notice when they get to Jerusalem, it's, they must be circumcised and then I'm required to keep the law of Moses. And I'm, I'm, I think it's a little vague at this stage as to whether.

[00:05:35] Is keeping the law of Moses being circumcised, or is it circumcised and then all the laws on top of that as well? It's, so it could even be any, it gets worse in terms of the demands made on them.

[00:05:47] John: Well, it's true. And of course if you look at the second comment Luke really shows us that it's a contingent from a pharisaic background So which which on a most positive level shows the gospel was making inroads to people like Nicodemus and Simon and these marvellous scholars of the Word of God who some of whom clash with Jesus, but some of whom clearly, clearly were listening to the words of Jesus and have become followers of the way.

[00:06:21] And, and it could be even representative here, Dubit, that even within the Judaistic interpretation of this new way, that there are streams and levels, there are maybe. Maybe some who would have a more hardline view and some who would have a slightly more softer and liberal view, but, but essentially they're saying they're, they're within the same boundary.

[00:06:44] Luke you've, you've got to keep Moses. So whatever that means, you've got to keep Moses in order to be saved. And by the time we get to, to verse five and verse six, we've got a sense of it's the whole package. It's circumcision, it's keeping the law, and that's, what's going to help, help people be saved.

[00:07:06] in that, in that language. So this is a huge moment for Paul and Barnabas. It's a huge moment for the church, but especially for Paul and Barnabas because they have been pushing a message of, of actually salvation in Jesus by faith, not by the works of the law. And that's been one of the well received ideas right across that first two year missionary journey Largely by Gentiles, but also even by by some Jewish believers.

[00:07:36] They've lent into this idea So so it's a it's a big challenge and and it's a moment that can't be avoided, right? I mean you can't sidestep this this can't just be ignored. This has to be taken on And again, I think Luke's language, Barnabas and Paul entered into sharp dispute and debate, shows, okay, we can't sidestep this, we can't ignore the elephant in the room here, we have to actually take this on, so we're immediately confronted with something really confrontational that has the potential to wreck and split, but also, if managed properly, has the potential to make the church dynamically stronger, but this is not going to be easy.

[00:08:21] David: Yes. And it's interesting how the various levels of threat that are going on in this space. I think it's really, it really fascinates me. And the one. And we probably need to take our time sort of layering through some of them. But the word saved struck me at You and I have talked a lot about this.

[00:08:44] Sometimes it's just in the reading of the text that you see a word that you think, well, that's a very normal word. I mean, Christians talk about being saved. It's a, it's a thing. It's fascinating how And I'm open to your pushback, John, if I've missed one, but I was looking through all the uses of saved in acts so far, right?

[00:09:07] And they're always the work of God, right? It's, I can't, I can't see unless I missed one in my search, but it's. It's that God, God is adding to the number of those who are being saved, right? There's, there is salvation in no one else under the name, there's no other name under heaven in which humans are being saved, right?

[00:09:29] The Acts 11, he will give you a message by which you and your whole household will be saved, that, that salvation The trajectory of salvation has always been in act so far from God to people and, and, and I think, and, and, and, right in where I've missed it, this is the first one where all of a sudden the message appears that says you need to do this and it's not simply believe.

[00:09:58] Right. It's now there's something you need to do in addition to trusting Jesus to be saved. So I, I, I almost wondered, it's hard for our listeners to grasp this as much as it is for the contemporary reader that because we are now. A year and a half into this series, but I think if you were listening to acts read in a single setting, I wonder if this might, if you might notice this quicker, right?

[00:10:26] Oh, wait a minute. This is the first time I've heard that the salvation thing attached to something other than trusting Jesus, right? It's now, it's now attached to a new behavior. And I wonder if Luke intentionally, I mean, I'm convinced Luke intentionally wants you to feel that, that this should. This should feel strange, even before you've worked out your theological position on this.

[00:10:51] Even before you've figured out, where do I stand on this particular aspect? Rhetorically, I wonder if it's quite clever that salvation, this is the first encounter of the notion of something other than trust when it comes to salvation. I mean, do you hear that?

[00:11:08] John: Oh, totally. I think it's a brilliant observation. Well worthy of consideration and there is a shift here. So this is now becoming the works of people, which is the very, and of course, if, if any of our listeners have. any context or experience around the wider New Testament conversation. That's a jarring moment right

[00:11:30] David: Hmm.

[00:11:30] John: Because the whole of the trajectory of the New Testament is one where actually it's not what we do, it's what he's done. We are justified. We are made righteous in him. So, so this does feel like a, a, a jarring moment. This feels like the imposition of men's view of how to be saved, which is in direct collision with this revealed idea through the Messiah that actually it is through faith in Him that we are saved.

[00:12:05] And, and one is the works of men, the works of people, forgive me, and the other is the works of God. So there is, there's a definite. Clash of worldview here and I think it's one that even Peter is hinted at later on when he talks about, we're, we're, we're asking the Gentiles to carry a yoke, which we ourselves were never able to bear on that, that argument about yoke, which comes later on in the, in the chapter.

[00:12:34] definitely seems to affirm the idea that you're asking them to do a whole bunch of stuff,

[00:12:40] David: Mm-Hmm.

[00:12:41] John: which we have struggled to do. And I couldn't help think, but you know, about the yoke and thinking about being yoked to Christ and the fact that actually when we're yoked to him, he's the one really burying the burden and we are walking with him.

[00:12:53] So, so I think the, the implication of salvation here now, not That being about what God has done, but more being about what we're being asked to do, is definitely opened up at the beginning and it runs as a theme right through, right through the chapter. So I think it's a great observation, David, love that.

[00:13:11] David: the Greek's very stark as well. I, I dunno if you spotted that, where, I mean, the, the, the English translation, NIV is perfectly fine unless you're circumcised. You cannot, the Greek seems to draw, accept. Someone is circumcised and then, and then it is, it is not possible to be saved. I mean, and that phrase, I mean, I can't help but think Luke is wording it this way so that we absolutely see, let me say, let me say like this, I think the gospel calls us to be profoundly nervous.

[00:13:48] Sentences that say it is not possible for that person to be saved that that I feel like we should always sit nervous and that the cross has has made it such that there are no circumstances in which we should ever be saying to a person, it is not possible for them to be saved. So I, I love. Luke's language here and, and, and leaving that in his Greek a little stark for us to generate that discomfort. I mean, I mean, am I laying on too thick John there or, or it's

[00:14:28] John: no, and I think Paul and Barnabas response affirmed that. I mean, the language is really, really strong. They take a stand against this idea. I mean, this isn't just, oh, well boys, I think we just, we would have it, we all love Jesus. We've just got a wee difference of opinion here. No, no, this is now brewing into a bit of a knockdown dragout fight.

[00:14:49] To the extent that it eventually gets escalated to Jerusalem. And we end up with a council because of this question. So, what has started off as certain people going down to Antioch with their view, has now escalated into a serious a serious argument. And again, for some, for some people, I think in the modern 21st century world, we're very uncomfortable about the idea of argument.

[00:15:16] We're very uncomfortable about disagreement, but there are some things we can agree to disagree on. And there are some things that actually, I'm really sorry, we're now, we're now on collision course here. Silas, there would be a whole. bunch of stuff. And when we eventually get to the recommendations of James, I think, the likes of Paul could have pushed back and said, actually, you don't even need to do that.

[00:15:42] But there's a sense in which they go, okay, that's, that's run with some of these ideas because that's absolutely fine. When it comes to your definition of salvation, Paul's taking a stand. He's not budging. Barnabas is taking a stand. No, no, we cannot move on this issue. This is. for them, I think, literally, life and death.

[00:16:05] And so you get this sort of strange paradoxical moment of of a statement saying people cannot be saved and Paul and Barnabas absolutely refuting that idea and refusing to accept that as a position in Jesus. No, no, we refuse to accept. That a person cannot be saved, that actually, in Christ, the way has been made for all to be saved.

[00:16:34] And, and, and you can feel the passion of Paul and Barnabas in the response in, in this contentious debate that they enter into with, with these certain people. And we're not quite sure how that, how long the debate went on, but it escalated to a level that it eventually It eventually arrives at the doorstep of Jerusalem and the elders and apostles there.

[00:17:00] David: the well, at one level There's this sense that this debate goes on long beyond this, because as many of our listeners will spot, you feel this debate in Paul's letters, right? You feel this debate in in later Christianity. I mean, they're still talking about this debate in some form or another for into the second century of the church, this question of but I mean, Yeah.

[00:17:28] Yeah. For me, even as you were talking just there, I can't help but be drawn to Galatians chapter two, where Paul envisages an earlier situation to this. So my take on Galatians would be that what Paul's talking about at Galatians two is not the same debate that happens around Jerusalem. I think it maybe precedes it slightly.

[00:17:49] I think it's in the lead up to things. And that's a. That's a hugely debated subject, so anybody that picks up on Galatians studies will quickly bump into the question of this story in Galatians 2 that Paul tells about his argument with Peter. When does that happen, right? And what is it? And the reason that this debate happens actually is rooted in early, in my opinion, early Is rooted in early 20th century distrust of acts, so I think the casual reader reads the story of X 15 and reads the story of Galatians 2 and goes, I don't think these are the same story, but because in the early 20th century, the historicity of acts was being heavily questioned by certain schools of thought.

[00:18:35] It was like, yeah, well, it's just how Luke tells the story. It's the same thing, but increasingly now you'll find modern commentators are saying no, no, wait, acts. It is working to a story that is more trustworthy historically, and that doesn't mean you have to believe it, but that commentators are saying, no, I think Luke is making sense here, and actually Paul's missionary journey suggested this incident is probably an earlier one that Paul is referring to where him and Peter come to come to sharp relief, but it is still the same issue, which leads to Paul's statement in Galatians 2 21.

[00:19:12] That if righteousness could be gained through the law, then Christ died for nothing. So, so I mean, it's like, my goodness, what a statement, but I think it's worth inserting Paul's statement from Galatians 2 21 early into it, because I think I could say with some confidence, the sharp dispute and debate that Paul and Barnabas have.

[00:19:37] Is probably words to that effect that, that, that when we start saying things like, unless you do this and, and that this is something other than trust in Jesus, then for Paul, the stakes are, I'm not sure what the death of Christ was about then the death of Christ either worked for Paul or it didn't work,

[00:20:01] John: Yeah.

[00:20:02] David: but there's definitely not this, what Paul can't seem to, I Accept.

[00:20:07] And we as Christians, even in the modern world, we slip into on an all too regular basis. Paul can't accept that the cross kind of worked. It's zero sum for Paul. It did or it didn't. And, and, and he'll, he'll, he'll have the conversation about whether it didn't. And he'll have the conversation whether he did, but he will not accept stopping in a spot where.

[00:20:30] Well, it kind of did, and I don't think it's possible to overstate that when it comes to Paul.

[00:20:38] John: So good. So good. And I was just looking at the previous words in Galatians 2, David, from verse 21 that you quoted. But verse 19, For through the law I died to the law so that I may live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body.

[00:21:00] I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave himself. For me, there's a, a totality, there's a totality of commitment to this idea. Paul has been revolutionized by an encounter with Jesus.

[00:21:17] David: Mm.

[00:21:19] John: and, and of course we, we know from other bits of Paul's writing, from a Pharisaic background, Hebrew of Hebrews, tribe of Benjamin, when it comes to legalistic righteousness, he says in Philippines, I was faultless, come on.

[00:21:34] There's Paul putting it out there. I was faultless. So this is a man, pre Damascus Road, who has been absolutely committed to Torah, absolutely committed to Moses. There's no one could be more committed to Moses than him. And yet here he is saying that actually the law wasn't able to save me. But it's, it's actually, it's Christ dying and the righteousness gained through him.

[00:22:05] dying that actually has set me free. So I, I, I totally resonate it for, for Paul. This is not just an intellectual argument. This is not, well, it's a difference of opinion. It's, it's how one interprets the text, right? No, that for Paul, this strikes at the very core of both his theological revelation, but also his experience on the road to Damascus.

[00:22:26] He has literally met the risen Christ and that transformed his reading of Torah. transformed his reading of Moses. He doesn't abandon the law, but he makes it clear the law cannot save. And in fact, keeping the law cannot save anybody. And if, if, if we say that that is the only way to Jesus, then it is not possible.

[00:22:48] And Jesus has died for nothing. So it's, there's a lot at stake here for Paul. There's a lot at stake here for the Gentile world. But Paul becomes this sort of charge on this, because he's, he's totally and 100 percent in on the whole idea. Of, of, of Jesus death and righteousness that has come through that death.

[00:23:10] David: And again, readers that want to do their sort of double points homework, notice not just Galatians 2, but Ephesians 2, right? Where Paul says in verse 11, remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth, Called the Uncircumcision by those who are called the circumcision.

[00:23:28] A physical circumcision made in the flesh by human hands. Remember that you are at one point without Christ being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenant having no hope and without God in the world. Then he says, but now in Christ Jesus, you who are once far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

[00:23:49] John: Beautiful, beautiful.

[00:23:51] David: And then also I can't help but read it verse 14 for he is our peace and in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall that is the hostility between us. I mean, Paul is often a little more graphic than we want him to be. And, and I'm cautious. John, you can kind of speak to me afterwards about whether we edit this out if it's too much, but, but let's not, let's not forget what Paul, I think Paul's doing something really clever here, but it's a little bit gross, where when we're, we're having a conversation about circumcision, we're having a conversation about.

[00:24:25] An operation, right? And I'm being very cautious with my words here, as people I'm sure can understand why, but we're talking about an operation, an operation in the flesh. And Paul now talks about, as a metaphor against that, not your blood and flesh, but Christ's blood and flesh. And I think because we.

[00:24:44] Talk about Christ's blood and flesh in a lot of contexts. We sometimes miss the kind of point to point thing that Paul's doing here, that he's saying all of that stuff has been done in Christ Jesus for us. But I think what's worth saying at this point is, so you've got this metaphor of circumcised in your flesh or circumcised in the flesh of Christ, I think would be how Paul's painting that, that sort of.

[00:25:13] picture there. And therefore he becomes our piece of something. So previously you thought that an operation or a procedure that happened to you was what was necessary. Paul is now saying, no, no, an operation or a procedure that happened to Christ is now what is implicit for you.

[00:25:32] John: So good.

[00:25:33] David: But, but I think what I'd want to sort of add at this point to help people out is that Bear in mind also that, and this is a huge shift in New Testament scholarship really in the last kind of 40, 50 years maybe even coming towards 60 years now.

[00:25:51] But one of the misappropriations we make of Jewish people is to assume that Jewish people thought That they got saved by being circumcised, right? And, and that's not, that's a, that's a misappropriation. That's a very Western Christian reading of Jewish texts. So the old Testament would teach that the only way that we are the people of God.

[00:26:12] Is by God's grace, that's, that message is also, I mean, you a, a, a close reading of Torah, not an academic reading, just a close reading of Torah, God's grace is all over it, isn't

[00:26:23] John: sure. For

[00:26:23] David: The question is, the question to Abraham, which is also then the question to, to anybody is, In light of God's grace to choose us, how will we respond?

[00:26:35] And the response that was required by the law was to keep the law. And by keeping the law, we show ourselves as willing recipients of God's grace. So it doesn't earn us our salvation, it's our reaction to salvation. And so, so when people are coming down To Judea, so to Antioch from Judea, they're essentially, that's the message they're perplating is like, okay, so you found Christ through his grace, but you now need to react because if you don't react, what you're saying is, I don't want God's grace.

[00:27:08] And the way that we act to show that we want God's grace is to get ourselves circumcised. But what you see in Ephesians, what you see in Galatians is Paul saying, no, no, no. Because Christ, Christ is the one who has react. Coed for us. We now trust in him. And all those things which are true of Christ, are now true of us.

[00:27:28] So, I mean, that's super condensed, but I think it's worth saying at this stage of a conversation like this,

[00:27:35] John: Totally brilliant. Yeah, absolutely. It was a brilliant summary, David. Thank you. And again, I would say to our listeners why don't you wind that back and listen to that again. A superb, superb summary, summary of all of that. And, and again, I was just following your trajectory in Ephesians and, and love how Paul concluded there.

[00:27:55] And you can see the Christ centricity to his argument. In him, the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him, you two are being built together. to become a dwelling in which God lives by the Spirit. And you can see, you can see his appeal, that in Christ he He wants what looks like a Gentile world and a Jewish world to celebrate what has been done in Jesus for both those worlds.

[00:28:28] David: Mm-Hmm.

[00:28:29] John: if both those worlds can understand that Jesus has done it for them, that it's happened in Him and through Him, as you so, magnificently and articulately described. Then actually, it has the potential to create a magnificent, can I say, new, a magnificent new temple. A temple not made by the hands of men, but a temple that is shaped by the hands of God and built on Christ himself.

[00:28:59] All the good of the law comes to life, but it comes to life by faith in what has been accomplished in Jesus and by Jesus and through Jesus. So for me and you sitting 21 centuries later, it's sort of you go, wow, this is such a gloriously magnificent idea. But of course, in the first century world, the hotbed where everything to do with your world is under threat politically, it's under threat economically, it's under threat geographically, and now it's under threat by a growing and emerging cult within, within this setting.

[00:29:37] It's easy to see how people would shut down and react and yet Paul is appealing. No, no, no, listen, he wants to build a new building, he wants to build one man, he wants to become our Shalom that brings all of this together, breaks down the wall of partition and allows us to be one person together in and through Christ Jesus.

[00:29:57] So it's, it's a, it's a world changing conversation. And Paul is fiercely defending this idea because he knows, well, does he know, maybe he knows, he knows that quite literally the history of the world hinges on this idea and it could change the whole of humanity one way or another. So it's a powerful, powerful argument.

[00:30:22]