Trusting Good Hands | Disruptive Presence 72

 AI Generated Transcript

[00:00:00] David: Well, John, I don't know about you, but I'm still thinking about how we rolled out of that last Episode about this, this call to to sort of put our shoulders in with Jesus on the kingdom of God, which brings us to a place of perhaps hardship on. We were, we were talking about different translations after the recording and how. 

[00:00:27] Actually, one of these moments where Eugene Peterson, I think is really helpful in the message that when he translates this passage about going through the NIV says we must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God. And we talked about how that's a slightly unfortunate translation. Peterson talks about in the message, he talks about how if you're signing up for the kingdom of God. 

[00:00:49] Expect hardships coming after it becomes a sort of effect of joining the kingdom, not a way to get into the kingdom which I think is a helpful umbrella for this next section that we're coming into today, because there's, we see Paul makes this statement, doesn't he? So he's been stoned. He comes back to the disciples in all the places that he's had troubles in the past. 

[00:01:15] And he does two things. He encourages them. to, to keep going because the kingdom of God needs us to, to endure which I think is, is beautiful. And then they do some practical work, which we're going to read about today, which is verse 23 of Acts 14 through to through to the sort of end of the chapter at verse 28. 

[00:01:34] Isn't it? 

[00:01:35] John: Yeah, absolutely beautiful. And in the same way that those disciples surrounded Paul and he got up and went back into the city and then they were done the derby. I love the idea of Paul and Barnabas sort of coming alongside the believers and strengthening them. So it's absolutely beautiful. So shall I read from verse 23 to the end and then we'll jump in? 

[00:01:55] Let's do it. So it says this. Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church, and with prayer and fasting committed them to the Lord, in whom they put their trust. After going through Pisidia, they came into Pamphylia, and when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down to Italia. 

[00:02:19] From Italia, they sailed back to Antioch, where they had been committed to the grace of God. For the work they now had completed, all of that statement on arriving there They gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them And how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles and they stayed there a long time with the disciples It's just gorgeous. 

[00:02:46] Beautiful, 

[00:02:47] David: It is. It's a lovely, in fact, this whole section that we've in the last episode in this episode, it's, it's a whole sequence of just really, really meaty really meaty sentences. Right. And as I start, as I start this, I have this image now, as, as, as maybe our listeners don't know, I, I, I don't eat a lot of meat. 

[00:03:07] So this is a strange metaphor, but I remember. Occasionally having ribs and you occasionally you get a rib and it's a really juicy rib and then the next one's a really juicy rib as well. And you think, well, this is good times. This is what this is what this little section feels like to me. 

[00:03:21] It's like if you're reading this almost in your daily readings, it'd be easy to just breeze over it and say, Oh, we're just getting Paul and Barnabas moving around a little bit. But when you slow down, I It's like, and please vegetarians forgive me for this metaphor. Know that I am amongst your company, but, but, but it's like one juicy rib after the other. 

[00:03:43] If you just slow down and, and, and I mean, do I need to edit that metaphor out, John? Or are you going to, are you going to let me get away with it? 

[00:03:51] John: I will. Well, as a meat eater, I'm going to let you get away with it. But for those of our listeners who are non partakers of the meat kind, please lie down now and receive ministry from the Lord as we carry on. But yes, no, I totally get that. I sometimes refer to these types of passages as hidden in plain sight stuff. 

[00:04:13] It's the sort of stuff, you're absolutely right, I've used this sort of phraseology so often when I've been preaching and teaching, you read this stuff and it seems so normal, it just seems like, oh yeah, we're just being told they've gone from one place to another, but there are some gems just tucked in there, and I think this little passage is full of just really beautiful, beautiful construction. 

[00:04:37] Just, just things that even as I was reading them caught my heart again. And I think they're, they're, they're well worth our consideration. 

[00:04:44] David: The, so it's lovely, and I said it at the intro, but now that we've heard it, we see it. Paul comes along in verse 22, strengthens the disciples, encourages them to remain with the faith. We, for the kingdom, we must go through hardships. And then they appoint elders and, and leadership in these sort of areas to. 

[00:05:10] To, to help the work of the kingdom. I think it's, it's fascinating that Paul's message of hardship for the sake of the kingdom leads to people saying, yes, I want to sign up for that. That's, that's what I'm, give me some of that, which is quite remarkable, isn't it? 

[00:05:29] John: it totally is. And it also feels what the way I love the way the passage is constructed. I know we sort of jumped in for this podcast. We jumped in at verse sort of 23. But of course, if you go with the flow previously, you've got this idea of strengthening, encouraging, and now appointing. 

[00:05:45] ordaining and it's all part of the strengthening encouraging process, isn't it? So, so there is a there's a generic strengthening and encouraging this drawing alongside them encourage them to remain true to the faith and that could be speaking to everybody who's part of that Christian community in Lystra or part of that Christian community in Iconium or Antioch and then we get this very specific way of strengthening the church, this very specific way of building the church up of I mean, literally having chosen now for them in every church elders. 

[00:06:21] And I love that idea that Paul and Barnabas are helping these local communities by helping them to choose some people who will be these these Elders who will help further strengthen and encourage the the Christian community and it It's a little pattern of their behavior that where they go There is the appointment of not just elder but generally elders. 

[00:06:48] There's a plurality of appointment usually There is a, it seems to me, David, there's a definitely a sort of a plurality of elders as an everyday expectation of the local church community, whatever other ministry gifts were involved within that. But I love the fact that it seems that Paul, if I'm reading that right, David, it seems that Paul and Barnabas are taking the initiative in choosing, helping them to choose and getting the ball rolling in strengthening with, with elders positioned to, to help the work of the Lord. 

[00:07:20] Is, is that, is that fair enough as a little continuation of the narrative, strengthening, encouragement, and then choosing? 

[00:07:26] David: yes, no, no, I think, well, I mean, and it's interesting, the language of pointing, you use the word ordained the, the, the language is this sort of compound word, which is to do with hand placing, isn't it? It's, they're, they're laying hands on these people. So there's this very visual symbol 

[00:07:46] Which I think is deeply powerful. 

[00:07:47] I'm, and I don't want to sort of derail us into, my own personal story, but this is something that I'm growing and learning about the need for the need for ordination as an identifier of this acceptance of the call. One of the challenges I think we find within a lot of modern evangelical context is somebody just gets up one day and says, I'm, I feel called to be a leader. 

[00:08:17] I'm going to be the leader. Right. And, and I think I would suggest to you that the last, 10, 20 years of evangelical leadership failure might suggest to us that model is not working too well. What you seem to see in more of the established church models. And I think you see in the new Testament is that nobody gets to just declare themselves 

[00:08:40] An elder, nobody gets to just declare themselves a presbyter to use the word that is in here in the Greek. 

[00:08:46] Yeah. You need other people together around you. You need you need someone, can I use the word superior ? You need a, a, a leader like a Paul and a barnaba to come in. You need a community to say, yes, we, we want these people to be our leaders. And then there's a prayer around that that identifies, we are all in an agreement that this is the right person. 

[00:09:09] Whereas I think our modern individualistic world suggests if I think I'm the leader, I get to be the leader and I can just simply declare it because my job title says it. And I think that yeah, I think that's a challenge for us in the modern 

[00:09:23] John: Oh, definitely. And I think the gorgeous imagery of the sort of stretching out of the hands that's within the word itself, sometimes translated appointed or ordained, I think that stretching out of the hands is, I love the sort of Layers to that potentially in that if I'm stretching out my hand towards you, then I am in some ways affirming you. 

[00:09:49] So there's something coming from the stretcher as it were, but also, of course, then there's something dynamic for the one to whom the hand is being stretched that actually there is an affirmation from you. At the very least, a peer or, to use your language, someone superior or someone with some level of spiritual authority or, uh, weight that's allowed to do these things. 

[00:10:15] But, but that's good for me. If, if you, as a Paul, are stretching out your hand towards me, one of these young, young, followers of Jesus in a local Christian community. I'm going, wow, okay, I've got some affirmation here to do what I can do. And this isn't just This isn't just a, too much pizza on a Saturday night, this feels like, like there's a God thing here within that. 

[00:10:41] And so I do love, I do love the imagery of the appointing, ordaining, the stretching out of the hands almost. I think it's an absolutely gorgeous image there, which gives us a bit of texture to the word and to the experience. Is that fair? Or am I over, am I overstretching that? What do you, what 

[00:10:58] David: Well, John, I'm in the canoe and heading over the waterfall with you on that one. I mean, I mean, I would say, and I don't know if the interests are listeners. So, you can let us know afterwards. But like, I would think about my own life in ministry, John, I have, I have held ministerial credentials before, and I've also been ordained. 

[00:11:17] And in my credentialing, I walked across the stage, shook someone's hand, was given a certificate, and then we all went out for curry afterwards, right? And it felt very temporary. It felt, you're very different in that in terms of it was just here, this is now a status that you've been given. I would say without going into the details, because it's not what the focus of our podcast is, but my ordination was, was one of the most profound spiritual experiences of my life, right? 

[00:11:49] Where, where someone laid hands on me and I know without, again, without going into the full details of it, it matched up and aligned both in my experience of the moment, but also in my Spiritual encounter with the moment with the moment that somebody laid hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit as a teenager, right? 

[00:12:09] And, and those two moments in my spiritual journey are very, very similar. There's so I fundamentally believe that there is something significant about having hands stretched out and laid upon you and being ordained into those things. So I have these two stories and one for credentials, one for ordination, and one was a ceremony. 

[00:12:29] With a bit of paper on one. I know that in 40 years time, if I'm still around, I will undoubtedly say that was one of the high spiritual moments of my life. So so I'm completely with you that these these things are are hugely significant. They're not. They're not just throwaway comments. And I think one of the clues that Dr Luke wants you to see that it's not a throwaway comment is that Paul and Barnas appointed elders for them in each church, right? 

[00:12:57] Now that could sound a little bit like walking across a stage and getting a certificate, but look with fasting prayer, they committed them to the Lord. So, so this has taken a cost. And this is, this is the thing that I'm trying to say badly at the minute is that. Too often, I decide, I think I want to be a minister, I'm going to, I'm going to declare that I've heard the call of God, and I'm going to be a minister. 

[00:13:23] And that's almost enough for us. In this situation, you've got this, the spiritual leaders in Paul and Barnabas coming in, the church are present to the story, and everybody has committed. To pray and fast about this, right? So, so these elders are heading out into their job, knowing that a lot of people are backing us on this. 

[00:13:44] Our congregation, like imagine if we were to hire pastors and the whole congregation had prayed and fasted about this. And then we brought in people that we spiritually respected and we gathered together all of us in prayer and fasting to pray for these people as our leaders. I mean, can I tentatively ask, would that change our atmosphere? 

[00:14:05] Would that change how we see these things? I mean, so maybe I'm just pushing us both further over the cliff, John, but I definitely want to endorse that what you're saying, I think is in the text. I mean, am I, am I making sense in return to that? 

[00:14:19] John: Oh, no, I love that. I think you absolutely are. And I think in the context then of I know that many of our listeners will have different type of church structures within their world and different language used. So I grew up with the language of. elders and deacons and sort of think I understood what that was. 

[00:14:41] But whatever your local language is, how you appropriate the language of what an elder might be in your world in that context, I think there's no doubt in my mind if we were to begin the journey of eldering. on the basis of the stretched out hands and the prayer and the fasting and a real sense that this is not simply an appointment to be the custodian of a charity or the custodian of an organization but you are now, to use another eldering word of Paul, you are the overseer, you are the episkopos of a community. 

[00:15:21] My goodness, that takes it to a whole different And I, and I think in my experience, if I'm really honest, and I, again, I, this is very anecdotal and very, very at one level on helpful, but may just also be a bit helpful. I, I've seen sometimes Eldarine almost reduced to. Sort of a role that serves a gift ministry. 

[00:15:48] so If you happen to have a pastor in your church, or you happen to have an apostle in your church, or you happen to have, then eldering is really about helping them to do their job. Whereas actually the New Testament holds up eldering as profoundly significant and powerful in its own right. In fact, later on Paul will say, if you can't sort of Elder and manage your world. 

[00:16:12] Well, whether that's a world of family or business. Well, I'm not quite sure you can elder the church. Well, so it's it's a really, really powerful position. And it's I don't mean powerful in terms of organizational authority. I mean, it's a powerful, authority and influential position that I think we need to maybe recapture and regain 

[00:16:38] David: Mm hmm. 

[00:16:39] John: because it's a strong New Testament model on on one, if we're not careful, we've replaced because of the requirements of modern business orientated spiritual communities. 

[00:16:52] And, and I still think there's a place for elderly. I, I, I, well, no, let me rephrase that. There is absolutely a place for elderly and, and there is a place to have these dynamic. men and women serve the church in this powerful spiritual way because they are a spiritual overseen ministry. 

[00:17:15] David: 100 percent and I love the way you phrased that and you mentioned it earlier and I want to come back so it doesn't get lost. And again, I'm just, I know that everybody comes from different church structures. I know that we all use different language. I don't want to get too hung up on language. I think sometimes we can end up having huge arguments about what we call the same things, right? 

[00:17:36] But I do think it's important. To the, and this is something I've held for a long, long time, Paul and Barnabas laid hands, stretched out hands towards elders plural for, for each church. And I have long kind of theorized another reason that we get into problematic leadership situations is not simply that. 

[00:18:03] It's not simply just because one person appoints themselves as the leader, but also actually too often we end up in, in one person with all the power, right? And and these are, I just don't think that's a new Testament model. I don't, I, you, I mean, goodness, it's not even Paul that's appointing elders. 

[00:18:20] It's Paul and Barnabas, right? So they're working in a team context. And, and, and often people come back and say to me, well, you have to have team, but, but somebody has to be in charge. And, and I think what we see in X is yes, that's true. And it's probably the Holy spirit. And, and the rest of us are, are, are gathered together with. 

[00:18:40] prayer and fasting to hold true to the work that God's called us to. And this is complex. Like I know this, I'm trying to work this out in my own ministry situation right now. You visited us recently, you made this comment to us in leadership that our model is a very strange and unusual one because we're committed to trying to, to have two people sharing the senior leadership of, of the church. 

[00:19:02] But I feel like this is this is our attempt to lean into what, what we're seeing, not in a New Testament model. I want to be very careful of using the language of New Testament model, but of a tradition that we seem to see in the New Testament that avoids one person holding all the keys. I don't know if, if, if that's a, cause I don't want to. 

[00:19:23] I don't want to be quoted as saying, if you have a senior pastor, your church is unbiblical. That's not what I'm 

[00:19:30] John: No, no, not 

[00:19:32] David: I see a tendency in the New Testament, a very strong tendency to prefer not to have that and to prefer to have teams carrying responsibility and authority together. I mean, I want to be gentle with the way I'm saying that, John, but I think that's present in this text as well. 

[00:19:52] John: absolutely. I think that's fair. And I think, I think our listeners will know what you're saying and what not you're saying. I, there's not an attempt here to try and diss any one model, but just show, okay, there's some things happening here. Is that worthy of consideration? And I think even when you reflect back into the Old Testament the, the, The sort of positives of a king reigning over Israel were if it was a good king and the king was wise and the king followed great protocols and the king listened and the king pulled good counsellors around him, everybody prospered. 

[00:20:31] If the cane was a disaster, the country went down very, very quickly. So, so you know that when, when you replace God as King, then you put a lot of weight on men, on women that I'm not sure they were designed for. So I'm not sure any human was designed to lead alone. So it's quite interesting. The Torah, the first time God says it's not good for man to be alone. 

[00:20:56] It's in the context of human community. And of course he makes out of. He makes the woman out of the man. But then the very next reference to that phrase is when Jethro says to Moses, it is not good to lead alone. Almost identical phraseology. And, and later on in the Torah you see Moses still trying to lead on his own. 

[00:21:17] And God actually has to say to him, bring those 70 elders. I'll put my spirit on them that I put on you. and we'll do this thing properly. So, so you actually, even within, in the Old Testament context, which most people would say leans into some sort of, single leader model, actually it's not a great track record. 

[00:21:37] David: yes, 
 

[00:21:38] John: and it only works well if the, if the leader is a good leader and gathers random good people. And, and, and the other little reflection here in terms of the appointment of elders, remembering these are young churches, These are still relatively young Christian communities, and the fact that you're then presenting and preparing plurality of elders means that actually you, you have the scope of bringing younger leaders. 

[00:22:06] Now when I say younger, I don't mean like young in age, but I mean young in, relatively young in faith. We need to be cautious there. Even Paul is cautious with Timothy on that, but you can bring younger leaders and elders into a context of team 

[00:22:21] David: yes, 
 

[00:22:22] John: where they can be developed and grow and nurtured and challenged whereas if they were inexperienced and on their own, then they're more likely to make bad mistakes, or at least those mistakes are more likely to be more painful and costly. 

[00:22:39] for having me. Whereas in the context of team that that can slow some of that stuff down a wee bit and help grow on. And certainly I'm grateful for that in my my early ministry in that I was, I was brought into a very good, strong overseeing team culture. 

[00:22:54] David: yes. And, and, and again, and I want to keep this, really, really important that people don't hear what we're not seeing. Team comes in multiple formats, right? So, so you might look at your church and on your website, it says, senior pastor and it's, it's, it's, it's one, it's one woman in charge of everything. 

[00:23:13] But if they're working within a team of elders, or their, or whatever your church calls that, for me, the key thing is that, that we're a team. Different people will, will come at this in different ways, but what you're looking for, I think, is, is this space where there's, there's a, there's a multiplicity of voice and of listening to the Holy Spirit. 

[00:23:35] And then there's other something, John, I just, just to bring you back to the text that you mentioned just a moment ago, which I think is fascinating to the point that we're making. His number's 1125. There's a very subtle nuance there that, that notice, and I don't know if you, if you want to circle back to this, but so that then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke with Moses. 

[00:23:55] And then look at this, and he took some of the power of the spirit that was on him and put it on the 70 elders. It's fascinating to me that it's not simply that the Spirit comes down and anoints the Seventy Elders, but it's Moses anointing that is put on the Seventy Elders which is I think why the laying on of hands thing is significant. 

[00:24:19] Right. The, the, the, there's a level within the scripture that is perceived that the person, that, that something of the anointing on the person who is praying for you is passed on to you, and that that's a little mystical. So some people might want to spend some time thinking about where they stand on this. 

[00:24:37] For me, it means two things for me. It means number one, if you, thinking, you talked a little bit about younger leaders, if you're pursuing. A certain calling, or you feel God's unfolding a certain calling in you, have, have people that you want to carry something of them, have them be the people that anoint you, right? 

[00:25:00] The flip side of that is. Don't let yourself be anointed by people who you don't want some of their spirits. Right? It's like, if you're like, well, I'm not really sure about that person. Well, the last thing you want to do, if you're comfortable living in the Holy Spirit space, the acts wants to push us towards, pursue the right laying on of hands and avoid the wrong laying on of hands. 

[00:25:19] I mean, is that, is that another one of these points, John, where I say, should I edit that from the podcast later? But do you hear what I'm saying there? 

[00:25:28] John: Yeah, completely. And. And I think there is a care there, if we're going to follow this model of the stretching out of the hands, then there is again a texture within the idea that's suggesting, well, whose hands are doing the stretching and whose hands are coming on here and do we trust those hands? 

[00:25:48] Do we respect those hands? Do we identify those hands as being hands that actually carry responsibility? Yeah. something of the anointing of, of the Lord. And again, I, I love this in Paul's ongoing relationship with some of the churches that he helps pioneer and plant, Corinth, a church that Paul with his team clearly plants this church and yet when he, when he writes 2nd Corinthians he's almost appealing to them to allow him to be their father. 

[00:26:18] He's appealing to them like, okay, can I have permission to speak into your world? So here's Paul and he has every right, even to use his own language, every right to sort of force himself on them and sort of say, well, hold on a minute, I've got some authority here. But even there, Paul is relying on relational credibility. 

[00:26:38] David: Mm. 
 

[00:26:39] John: to release the spiritual authority. And I think that's a biblical idea. I think just because somebody in one part of the world calls himself an apostle doesn't mean he's an apostle or she's an apostle to me. 

[00:26:54] David: Mm. 
 

[00:26:55] John: So, so we, these, these, these ideas are not simply hierarchical or organizational. They are also spiritual and authoritative. 

[00:27:06] David: Mm. 
 

[00:27:08] John: So, so you, you David could be a father to Somebody else, but not be a father to me, you could be an apostle in Calgary, but not be an apostle in, in Ludington, so, so at the end of the day these aren't in my, this is the way I read them. These are not organizationally fixed positions. These are relational ideas where the relational credibility releases. 

[00:27:34] This spiritual authority that is present within that gift. And if I recognize someone, if I say, Paul is an apostle, for example, or Barnabas and Paul have the authority to do this, then, yes, please stretch out your hand and do this. And I think that's a reasonable conversation. I know I may have been clumsy in the way I've put it, but I think it's definitely a reasonable conversation and should be allowed to stay on the table at least. 

[00:28:00] David: It's interesting, I just was thinking about how from time to time I get these emails from people who say, I don't come to your church, but I'd love to know your take on this particular piece of scripture or this particular theological idea. And I often say to my team when we get emails coming like that, that I say, I'm just curious as to why Somebody wants my opinion on that. 

[00:28:25] To exactly your point, I am a pastor at this particular church, this particular place in the world that I feel called to. And I think my congregation have affirmed that calling that yes, you're our pastor, but I'm not. The pastor of some random person who admits, I don't even come to your church. 

[00:28:43] I'm not even part of your congregation. So there's a part of me almost wants to say, why would you even care what I have to say about this? Like, why, why does that, why does that actually matter at some level? Because I know I definitely don't want to get caught up in my own self importance in that. But I think, I think this is really profound. 

[00:29:04] Stuff for us that when then for us as congregants, even there's something to say, I recognize. The appointment of the person who is the pastor, right? So, am I willing, and again, we're treading around areas of power here that can be abused. So, I would say both of us are very clear on what, what were caveats in a conversation like this. 

[00:29:29] But at a spiritual level, there is a moment where you're saying, This person then, they don't have carte blanche in my life, but if I'm identifying that I do recognize that they are appointed, hands are laid on them, ordained, called, whatever the language you use is, to this community of which I am a part, I am allowing them a level of spiritual authority here. 

[00:29:54] I'm allowing them a guiding influence in my life that will be significant, which I think is why it's so painful when leaders fail. Because, because we've let them have influence over our lives, but I also think the flip side of it can be sometimes the leaders fail in other ways is because congregants don't act in such a way that they recognize that appointment. 

[00:30:18] And I would be tempted to say, I want to say this very cautiously, I'm threading a needle here. There are more leaders fail because congregations don't. Affirm their ordination than there are that fail because they are intrinsically bad people and and the bad the bad Christian leaders out there do get all the headlines. 

[00:30:43] So it feels like. That abusive leadership is the worst one that we're facing, and it does often have a lot of damage. And so I'm not trying to, please don't hear what I'm not saying. But there's a subtle form of leadership failure which comes from groups of people just not fully endorsing the sense of we've all agreed together that this is the call that's upon our church and that together we're going to work in a certain direction. 

[00:31:08] Perhaps I say it better like this. Disharmony amongst Eldership has probably caused the church more problems than, than, than the, the, the famous stories of, of bad leadership. Does, I mean, John, I'm, I'm, I know I'm skating on thin ice here, but do you hear what I'm scratching at? 

[00:31:31] John: yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and I think that sense of what seems to be happening here in verse 23 is the whole community involved. I don't mean in some sort of democratic sense, but I mean in, in a sense of understanding who is doing what that is what Paul and Barnabas are doing on their behalf. 

[00:31:56] David: Yes. 
 

[00:31:56] John: And also an understanding of who is being appointed and called. And for what reason? And in the context of prayer and fasting, that this is not simply an organizational appointment or some form of positioning, within the hierarchy, but this is for the spiritual well being of the community. So it feels, again, You can read this so quickly and so simply over a cup of coffee that you, you don't see the weight in it, but this is a fairly weighty commitment, saying that's, let me read it to you again, Paul and Barnabas appointed or ordained elders for them in each church and with prayer and fasting committed them to the Lord. 

[00:32:47] in whom they had put their trust. So there's a whole bunch of sort of serious spiritual ideas here that are going on and it's, it's about pulling this community together. I think, however, each local church does it, if, if we somehow Pulled the community together into the supreme importance that these roles, whatever they're called, are not simply organizational, but they're profoundly spiritual. 

[00:33:16] And if done properly, they add a weight on the authority to to the leading of the community that can further strengthen and encourage that community. I think if we pull that in more. Then maybe, forgive this language, this is horrible, then maybe the sort of average person in the pew would feel more connected to the idea of what we're doing. 

[00:33:39] I'm not saying that everybody gets a say, because then we would never get anything done, but they feel at least connected. And I, David, I hear the echo of, of, of Antioch, all those Podcasts ago when, when Paul and Barnabas, Barnabas and Saul were loosed, they were sent, they were affirmed by the community. 

[00:34:02] There is something that isn't just them doing, but something being done on them and some being done with them. Now, me and you are scratching at a massive issue and we would get maybe our backsides kicked for all sorts of innuendos that we've suggested here. But Our passion for the church is such that we want to see the church doing well, and one of the areas where the church can definitely do better is the way we release a point and stretch our hands out to leaders. 

[00:34:32] And somehow, maybe in the simplicity of verse 23, there, there, there is a reminder that this isn't just a special committee appointing someone, but this is a community dynamic that all of us, at some level, whatever that means, must be involved in. 

[00:34:50] David: Yeah. A hundred percent. It's so much better a way of saying it, John, than I was fumbling my way through earlier. I, I love it. There's just, I love this assertion that yes, there are dangers of abusive power. Yes, there are. We know all of them. those, but there are also dangers of us just not being the people of God, of not recognizing the work of the Holy Spirit and of not committing to it together to say, yes, we affirm, we identify and we are, we are in with this. 

[00:35:19] And, and I think, and, and that to me. Is is beautiful when we kind of maybe as we just sort of touched down this episode in verse 26, so they sail back to Antioch where they had been committed to the grace of God for the work they had now completed. I love the Greek word there. The work that was fulfilled, right? 

[00:35:40] And there's, there's this sense that. You see exactly what we're seeing happening in this story, then they return home and say, look what we have done, but not what we, Paul and Barnabas have done, we, the church have done because you sent us out, we had the grace of God upon us and, and we were successful. 

[00:36:00] And I'm not sure that you and I would say getting stoned in the street. was successful. But, but I think that speaks to what you're saying just there. Doesn't it? That you see it even happen in the story that this is a community of Jesus followers, asserting their recognition that the Holy Spirit is in this project. 

[00:36:19] John: absolutely. It, it's, it's come full circle. Paul and Barnabas are sent by a community of faith. They build communities of faith and they return to a community of faith. And I think that's at the very heart of. Everything they are achieving and seeking to achieve to do not only proclaim the gospel But ensure the communities of faith are built in order to establish that gospel. 

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