AI Transcript

[00:00:00] John: Well, David, we are back and I have to say our last conversation that we had around Paul and Barnabas in Lystra and the incredible moment of the the man being healed and the family. Stupendous reaction to that. This, the crowd at one minute wanting to make them almost honor them as the gods who had come down and then the next minute trying to essentially literally beat the life out of them and destroy them. 

[00:01:19] So you just see the incredible dynamic of that moment and and how Paul 

[00:01:25] David: fame is a fickle thing. 

[00:01:27] John: It seems like it. It seems like it. And this, this incredible moment that that, that Paul and Barnabas are negotiating, we want to sort of carry on with that conversation, pick up a little bit where we left off last time and sort of lean into how Paul and Barnabas recovered from that moment and then what they sort of did next. 

[00:01:46] And so, it's just quite fascinating, really, in the context of their, their response to the whole thing, which is really quite amazing. 

[00:01:54] David: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I, as I was reflecting on the conversation last time as well, I know, I mean, I jokingly say fame is a fickle thing, but isn't it fascinating how, what Paul and Barnabas encounter? We see right up to this present day that one moment somebody is just the flavor of the moment and then something happens. 

[00:02:15] And somebody changes their mind and all of a sudden they're. Public enemy number one and, and let's throw rocks at them is it's remarkable how, as we read through the axe story, how humanity is so similar 2000 years later, we, we are, we're using different technologies. We're arguing over different subjects sometimes, but we, we just keep doing the same things. 

[00:02:42] John: it's for sure. For sure. Absolutely. And anyone who's had Any little engagement with social media knows that you could be stoned verbally within an inch of your life on that platform in terms of how things can change very, very quickly. So, David, you want to read for us? If we pick up again chapter 14, verse 19, read a few verses and then we're sort of going to jump in, see where we go. 

[00:03:08] David: sounds good. So let's read 19 through to let's read through to 22. It says this in Acts chapter 14. Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul, dragged him outside the city thinking he was dead. But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. 

[00:03:31] The next day, he and Barnabas left for Derby. They preached the gospel in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God, they said. 

[00:03:56] John: Incredible, isn't it? 

[00:03:57] David: packed few verses there, isn't 

[00:03:58] John: Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you didn't, if you didn't have verse 19, then verses sort of 20, 21, 22 would be pretty amazing on their own. Paul went back to the city. The next day they went to Derby. Then they preached and made many disciples strength returning to the church of strength and I mean all of that's pretty remarkable on his own, but it's it's prefixed by this staggering statement that that actually Paul was stoned and dragged out of the city, supposing him to be dead. 

[00:04:33] An interesting little reflection there, David. I don't know if you noticed it, but like it's Paul that got stoned and not Barnabas. So, so whether I think we touched on this just briefly before, but it's whether it's whether somehow Paul was in the middle of the crowd. He's the one getting grabbed on Barnabas may may or may not have been there, but it is. 

[00:04:52] It is certainly the focus is on Paul being stoned there. 

[00:04:56] David: Mm. 
 

[00:04:57] John: And, and him in some way being raised up, we had that lovely little reflection last time that little sort of almost resurrection nod was Paul actually dead or was he just sort of very badly injured and then raised up and in comparing his own record in Corinthians, he doesn't seem to suggest that he's dead. 

[00:05:19] He talks about being stoned, but like, But you know, who knows? It's, it's a gorgeous sort of mysterious little reference. And my goodness, doesn't he make the most of his resurrection, whatever, whatever way he was raised. 

[00:05:33] David: Yes. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and it's interesting how I mean the, I, I, I say this regularly on, on this act series, but I, I love how the, the poetics of the theologian, Willie Jennings comes to, to texts like this and, and he, he says this, which I really loved. Paul has violence used against him, which is always the journey of the Christian, right? 

[00:06:03] So, because if we're Jesus followers, Jesus has violence used against him. He said it seems to it seems to just be the way it goes. But then he says this, he says, Paul is left for dead. And here we meet more holy work. The disciples are those who surround people left for dead. We have no indication of a prayer, a word, or even medical intervention made on the behalf of Paul. 

[00:06:31] Only a group of disciples surrounding his body. And And I, I think it's really fascinating that, that he, that Jennings picks up on the fact that we don't actually, so, and we picked up on this in the last episode, it's like, is he dead? Is he not dead? What are they doing? Are they patching up? Are they not patching up? 

[00:06:50] Are they praying for him? Luke doesn't give us that insight. And I love how Jennings takes that to say That this is just the work of the church to surround those left for dead. Now he doesn't say this, but immediately I found myself thinking about the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost son, that if you allow, if you're comfortable, and I'm pretty sure most people would be, if you're comfortable taking Jennings approach there that, wait a minute, we don't know what's happening. 

[00:07:20] The disciples just gather around the one left for dead. You realize. I mean, it's not lost on me, John, that lost sheep, lost son, lost coin, are Lucan's, are Lucan stories, right? I mean, it's beautiful, isn't it? There is that connection there. 

[00:07:37] John: There is, there is. And again, the power, um, I, I, I think when you think about either the lost things and in this case, Paul, it's, it's our focus can be on the thing that's lost. Absolutely. But of course, in the, in that gorgeous Luke 15 chapter, there's also a focus on those searching or accepting. 

[00:08:00] So although the father doesn't search for the son who goes away the son returns, the father does run. 

[00:08:08] David: yes, 
 

[00:08:08] John: away and there's a definite reason for that in terms of delivering him from this terrible moment of this terrible moment of of potential exclusion from his village. So, so there is an emphasis on that on those gorgeous ideas of of not only the lost thing, but the person. 

[00:08:26] Our contacts that is to use the language here surrounding searching on and I love the simplicity of the X reference here. I mean, the language literally is they surround him. They encircle him. There's just a beautiful, a beautiful picture of a circle encircling someone of both defending them from what is without, but also that incredible nurturing encouragement, uplifting what is within. 

[00:08:55] And just, just as a little boy, I used to watch old, old Westerns and, and, when the, when the West, when, when the people were traveling across the plains and, and people came to attack them, they would circle the wagons, they would literally, put it in a circle and try to defend themselves. 

[00:09:10] And this lovely idea that the circling round is both of defense and encouragement. that they're essentially saying to Paul, whatever happens, we're not leaving you. Whatever happens, we're with you. Even if it costs us, we're going to stand with you. I just, I love that idea of that gathering, circling round and whatever happened to Paul, it certainly worked because the man got up and bounced straight back into action. 

[00:09:36] He's going for it straight away. 

[00:09:39] David: And in that point about bouncing straight back into action is really fascinating as well, because I hope that our listeners. picked up on it, that in verse 19, and this is why I think it's helpful for us to reverse a little bit and overlap these two verses across the two episodes. Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, right? 

[00:10:02] And that's the group of people that incite this stoning of Paul. Paul's response is to get up, go to Derbe, preach there, and then they return to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. I mean, Paul, Paul gets up. And in a, and I know this doesn't happen in one day, but ends up heading back to the places where the people who had come to stone him were from encouraging the work of the church in those places. 

[00:10:36] I mean, it's quite, it's quite something, isn't it? 

[00:10:39] John: Well, it is. And if you take if our listeners take a wee bit of a close look at the map there, what's really striking is and I love the way Dr Luke does this in in telling us that did Paul and Barnabas go first to Derby. They actually go further. So before they go back, they go on. So if you look at the map really carefully and you traced this missionary journey, this is the furthermost point of their journey. 

[00:11:07] It's a derby and in a derby they turn back. So, so just to help our listeners and help us from, from where they are in Lystra on the derby, that's 58 miles. Further on, that's 93km approximately if my conversion numbers are right, and they're going south east, so from Lystra they're going further David, and I thought that was even more remarkable, it wasn't even like, like, after getting stoned and getting beaten up, you think, well, okay, let's make our way back. 

[00:11:39] But before they go back, they go forward. David, I'm just like my goose pimples have now got goose pimples, right? So they're going forward before they go back. And I read that and saw that on the map. And I thought, wow, that is so cool. That's so amazing. And again, it says something about these amazing men. 

[00:11:59] Now, we're probably going to reflect on what they did on the way back. But before they went back, they went forward. And what it seems to suggest is that they hadn't quite finished what they set out to do. Now, my goodness, I mean, if you've just been through what they've been through, The idea of getting home to Antioch as quickly as possible would probably be the thing on really on your mind. 

[00:12:23] And yet before Paul and Barnabas turn for home, they go, hold on a minute, we've one more place to visit before we turn back on. They actually go forward. They don't just go back. David, I found that totally striking and really challenging to me in terms of that, that positioning of themselves. That makes sense. 

[00:12:47] David: Oh, yeah. No, it's, it's, it's, it's entirely on point. And it's not, it's not surprising to us of Paul, even though it's surprising to us of a human. 

[00:12:59] John: Mm. 
 

[00:13:00] David: That's what I was thinking as you were saying that it was like, if this was a story about me. Be thoroughly surprising. But the fact that it's a story about Paul, there's a little bit, I think even our listeners will go, yeah, that sounds, that sounds like Paul. And, and, and I think that there's, there's a level where. And again, I'm just, there's just a couple of sentences in Jennings on this section, but they're so good. The one I've read already. The other thing that he says that I really like is, is we who follow Jesus are working in wounds, working with wounds and working through wounds. 

[00:13:41] And I, and I think that relates to what you're saying. I didn't come onto our recording today thinking I'll just. Read all of this section of Jennings, but, but you keep creating great opportunity to jump in with his quotes, but, but I think that's what you're saying. If, if, if Paul's mindset is, I must be absolutely safe and my priority, my main priority is that I'm okay, then of course you get up, go to hospital for a while and then go back into, Real estate or something like that, but, but I think what Jennings is articulating is something that we see in Paul. 

[00:14:17] And I think there's a, there's perhaps a lot for us to dig into in this particular episode because of that, that. If you have a vision of Jesus as the crucified Jesus, which you see it, I mean, the obvious text is Philippians 2, let our mindset be the same as that of Christ Jesus, that Paul understands that it is a wounded Jesus that he sees. I'm thinking of Henri Nouwen's work around the wounded healer. That Paul seems to understand, he says in Galatians, don't, don't like stop causing me trouble because I bear the scars of Jesus on my body. Right? He seems to have a worldview, if that's the right word, word to use the understands that. 

[00:15:04] And we're going to see him, he expresses this explicitly in this passage, but that the wounds are not markers that he's doing things wrong. But equally, they're not necessarily markers that he's doing things right. There's just an inevitability that if you follow a wounded savior, God will not work despite the wounding, but he will seemingly work through the wounding. 

[00:15:28] As such, it seems to make sense, and I make sense goes in inverted commas here, quotation marks, but it seems to make sense that Paul continues on the journey that he feels called to, even though he encounters wounding. I mean, am I articulating that well enough, John? 

[00:15:48] John: Just no no outstanding. It's it's pretty and I think it captures for us those. the sentiment of those, those verses that we've read. They preached the gospel in that city, that's Derby, uh, one a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra. I just love, I love those two sides of that, David. 

[00:16:10] I think taking your, your thought of woundedness and the inevitability, and can I say this without sounding fatalistic, but the, the, the faith filled acceptance of wounding for the sake of Christ. I think we've talked about this before, the early church would have had an expectation of suffering for Jesus. 

[00:16:35] I don't want that to sound negative and fatalistic, but it was definitely there, and I think first century believers might look at some expressions of our our Christianity and our world and then go, what, what is, what is that exactly? Because the, the, some sections of the church would almost say, well, if somehow if we're suffering, something's wrong. 

[00:16:56] And actually in the New Testament church, there was clearly an expectation and almost inevitability of suffering. And, and yet in and through that suffering, he preaches, they preach the gospel. So that lovely sense of going to Derby and finishing what they started. Okay. We're going to go the whole way out here. 

[00:17:17] We're going to go another 60 miles southwest and we're going to finish this job. And then they return. And this gorgeous language of strengthening and encouraging what, what remains. It's just absolutely beautiful. And of course, the three places, just to remind our listeners, the three places they then returned to Antioch, they were expelled from. 

[00:17:39] Iconium, they were threatened and Lystrapol was stoned. 

[00:17:43] David: Yes. 
 

[00:17:44] John: So, so, so not only do they go on the derby, but on the way back, they go back to Lystra, where Paul has almost lost his life. So, but, but look at what they're doing. They're, they're, they're strengthening. They're encouraging people to remain true to the faith. 

[00:18:00] I, and, and that we must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom. It's just, it is absolutely staggering level. of commitment to the cause of Jesus Christ and the acceptance of suffering as part of that dynamic. It's beautiful. Mm. 

[00:18:17] David: I, I love this the, the Greek of this phrase, remaining true to the faith is the NIV puts it. You just have remaining by faith in the Greek or remaining to the faith or remaining in trust. However, there's multiple ways to, to sort of, but, but the full, the full sentence is calling them to remain to the faith. 

[00:18:40] Right. Beseeching them. A para callio is the, is the, is the Greek word for anyone interested? Like I exhorting them. And there's something, I mean, I'm trying to, to visualize, you've got, you've got Paul, I mean the, the timings are not. Are not clear, except that you've got, you've got the next day he goes to Derby, right? 

[00:19:04] So they get to Derby, they preach the gospel in that city, they won a number of disciples, they return to Lister. We don't know how long that is, right? But is it possible that you've, you've got a Paul still covered in bruises? Cuts, scratches, right? Encouraging them, exhorting them to remain true to the faith, right? 

[00:19:27] There's, there's a scene in Galatians three where Paul says it was when he talks about his visit to the Galatians and he says, wasn't, was Christ not visually portrayed as crucified before you, right? And some scholars wonder what Paul means by this, because. It doesn't mean that he really, he did what some theater companies have done over the years and movie companies have done over the years and just go into deep graphic gory detail of the crucifixion. 

[00:19:57] But that doesn't feel like the sort of thing that we would so expect from the time period. And a lot of scholars. I think that actually maybe what's going on here is that Paul sees his own body as a visual representation of Jesus, that, that he's been through so much that he is a little shocking to look at sometimes. 

[00:20:19] And this is, and bear in mind, he also in Galatians says, I bear the scars of Jesus on my body, which seems to suggest that the Galatians know this, right? And so you have this, this possibility that Paul. is pretty beat up looking. And and so I love this notion of, of, of, of, of me sitting in my church pew. 

[00:20:39] And I'm being anachronistic by saying this, we know they didn't sit in church pews in those days, but of me sitting in my church pew. Having a bad week and, and Paul turns up and, and he has on the return and still healing up from being stoned and his message is an exhortation to remain true to the faith. 

[00:21:02] John: Come on.  

[00:21:02] David: We had a guy come to our church who his, his family were attending our church because they were part of the initial evacuation from Ukraine back during when the war started. And he told his story about Leaving Ukraine and getting out before any of the restrictions, like by a matter of hours before any restrictions came on. 

[00:21:25] And so he's just got his family, young family out of a city that was being attacked of a country that was being attacked. And he's he's and he tells us his story. He's in Romania. And while he's in Romania. The night that he's left, he feels the voice of the Holy Spirit say to him, you need to go back to Ukraine because there's work to do there. 

[00:21:47] Right. So to cut a long story short, this, this man sends his family on to Canada where they can be rehoused and cared for. And he now his church, his church in Ukraine. Was, was, not by kind of megachurch standards, a largely attended church, few hundred people gathering together, he's gone back into this city which has suffered brutally under the, the war situation. 

[00:22:13] He's currently feeding around 4,000 people a month, right? In, with aid and help and, and, and the hope of Jesus. And he, and he was over visiting his family. So he shared in our church on, on Sunday morning. And, and I, and I have him in mind as I'm listening to this Paul story and acts that I turn up to church on Sunday, thinking that because one of the computers crashed, it was a really rough start to the service, and, and, and here's this man talking about the Holy spirit telling him to head back into a war zone. 

[00:22:45] And I only tell the story to draw the parallel that what must have been like to to hear. And maybe we've all been in that situation where we hear somebody talking about the work of Jesus and it somehow draws our own lives into relief, not, not out of guilt. Like I don't think we should ever then feel guilty about our, I don't think Jesus ever uses guilt, but you do hear what I'm scratching at. 

[00:23:09] It must be almost a discombobulating moment to see a man who's been stoned as much as it is to see a man who's working a faithful ministry in the Ukraine right now. It's sort of. The very image exhorts us to remain true to the faith, isn't it? 

[00:23:25] John: Indeed. Absolutely. In fact, just before you told your story, I was thinking of an exact example of that where I was part of a missions conference and one of the key speakers had just landed in from a missions context where he had been shot, um, and beaten and quite literally, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this guy is, which just refused, refused to not go on and minister and literally a couple of points in the, in the, in the sermon when he was preaching where, where he, he just had to sort of step away and, and like literally cough up blood. And they had some medical assistance waiting for him sort of after the session. Now here's the thought that I had, when you talked about Paul bearing in him, the marks of Christ, I want to tell you, When that man spoke, everyone was listening. Like, no one was thinking, oh, hurry up. I want a McDonald's. 

[00:24:26] Or, I wonder, will I get home in time to watch the football? It was like, right. Okay. Okay. Everybody pay attention. Because, because you're literally looking at someone marked, 

[00:24:41] David: yes, 
 

[00:24:42] John: marked for the gospel and there is something powerful about that, I think, I think, and you get a little echo of this in Acts 16, David, we'll get there eventually, but in Acts 16, Paul and Silas leave the prison after having been beaten and stripped and put in the inner cell and the first thing they do when they leave the prison is go to the house of Lydia and there they encourage the brothers If we're not sure what Paul looked like by the time he got back to Lystra and Iconium and Antioch, in terms of scratches and bruises and whatever, there is absolutely no question that when he leaves the prison in Philippi, the man, and Silas have serious bruises and beatings because they've just been beaten to a pulp, literally stripped and whipped for the cause of the gospel. 

[00:25:31] And yet what did they do? They encouraged their brother. Same word here, parakaleo. It's this, this gorgeous, almost echo of the Holy Spirit's work himself, drawing alongside to comfort and encourage. And what? Better comfort. Oh my goodness, what better comfort and encouragement to be comforted and encouraged by someone who's literally been bruised and stoned and still has the marks and the scratches on his body. 

[00:25:59] And he's saying to you, Come on now, Jesus is worth it. We can do this for Jesus. You are going to pay attention. I think, I think you are going to concentrate on his words a little bit harder, I think. 

[00:26:11] David: my goodness. And it's the understatement when Paul says, when Paul says, we must go through many hardships or, it's like, just to be clear, when Paul's standing there or, or your man at your missions conference, or, or, or the pastor speaking at our church on Sunday morning, like you're not hearing that and thinking. 

[00:26:33] Oh, yeah, my flight was canceled once and I had to wait three hours in the airport. This is true. There's deep hardship. aNd I think that, I mean, it's interesting the NIV chooses the word hardship, but the, the Greek is, is, is flipsis, which is like tribulations 

[00:26:51] John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:26:52] David: know, and, but I mean, I'm interested, John. 

[00:26:55] We must go through many hardships like and, and it's interesting, again, the the, the Greek really structures interest in that he beseeched them to remain to the faith because through many I mean, this is a literal Greek order because through many tribulations, it is necessary for us to go. 

[00:27:23] And then you get this purpose clause because of the kingdom of God, or into the kingdom of God. I like to try and translate that because of like, it's a, I don't let me say it like this. This might be too technical, so forgive me, but, but there's, there's a way to render purpose in Greek, which sometimes looks like just you're saying into something, right? 

[00:27:48] And it looks like you're talking trajectory. My worry about the translation that The, the new international gives us here is it starts to look a little bit like you earn the kingdom of God through hardship. And I, I can't help but think, even though everything we've confessed, I affirm that we have a crucified savior, a wounded healer. 

[00:28:13] Jesus has absorbed that suffering for us and creation and gifts us gifts us. Grace and salvation and, so, so it is not, I want to confess it's not necessary to go through troubling and suffering in order to earn your salvation, right? We've seen that across church history as a negative theology, but there's a way to read this text, which I think I would, I never, I mean, we've said this so many times, but I want to keep repeating it. 

[00:28:48] I don't want to cause. Doubt around the quality of English scripture translations, the NIV is a good translation. I just feel that I would translate this. We must go through many hardships because of the kingdom of God. I think that would better represent what I, what Paul seems to hold theologically elsewhere. 

[00:29:10] That, that I'm taking off this on this suffering, not to be saved, not for me to enter into God's kingdom. But because I am suffering with Christ, co crucified with Christ for the sake of the kingdom of God. So I absolutely believe that Paul could get up after being stoned, say, Oh, this is too much. I'm just going to go home and relax from now on. 

[00:29:33] And he is still loved by God. He is still saved. He is still promised an eternity with Jesus. Maybe I'm making too much of a point, John, so please cut me off if I  

[00:29:44] John: no, no, I would totally. And I think your words, the way you've translated that really echoes the words of Jesus himself. Jesus, when he's setting When he's saying to his would be followers, here's what the kingdom of God looks like, if you, if you want to know its dimensions. 

[00:30:01] I mean, Jesus himself says, blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And, and there's almost that sense of, it's, It's as we are embracing the kingdom, that actually suffering accompanies that, that kingdom. It's not our suffering that earns the kingdom. 

[00:30:24] It's the suffering is a reflection of the kingdom. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely. On my account. Rejoice and be glad for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets before you. So, for me the idea, because of rather than as a sort of a merit to get into, absolutely lines up, even, I think, even with the message of Jesus and the expectation that something of the taking up of the cross, something of the following of Jesus, will mean that the mark of the kingdom may on occasions mean we suffer because of that. I, I think that's a perfectly positive and healthy and absolutely non confusing way to understand suffering here rather than, Oh, because I've suffered I'm entering into the kingdom, which is, it is not really I, well, I, I don't think it's the nuance of Jesus. I don't think Jesus is presenting that idea to us. 

[00:31:30] I think it's a, it's a reflection of the kingdom. Yeah, 

[00:31:35] David: But we have seen over church history, people assume that, suffering gets you in or, and therefore you've even had people go and try and find suffering so that they can be in And I think, I think of Jesus, like, putting your hand to the plow. I think this is what Paul's talking about it's, and so often we confuse some of this language around, Oh, this is a conversation about salvation. 

[00:31:59] And I think what Paul's saying is, no, this is a conversation about the work of Jesus. This is a conversation about, about, are we willing to align ourselves with Jesus? The work of Jesus. And as we've talked already in this podcast series, sometimes like as in the case of John Mark at a particular moment, people say, no, that I just, I just don't have what it takes right now. 

[00:32:24] I just, I can't, I can't do this. And those reasons might be a hundred percent valid, even to Jesus, that, my family life doesn't allow this right now. My health doesn't allow this right now. And I would always want to encourage us not that. If you are living in guilt about what you are currently unable to do, that's not the Holy Spirit working in you because the Holy Spirit doesn't work via guilt, right? 

[00:32:53] Conviction and guilt are very different things, aren't they? And and the way the Holy Spirit stirs us and strengthens us and empowers us to do work isn't by making us feel bad. guilty and bad about ourselves. And, and I, and I think about, I think about where maybe we're in a nostalgic mood for this podcast. 

[00:33:10] We're thinking about things we've encountered, John, but I, a very formative hero of the faith for me as a young boy was this, was this lady in our church who I think almost every joint in her body was a false one. Like she'd, she'd yeah. been, been crippled with horrendous arthritis and as a result was, was very homebound, right? 

[00:33:36] And but my goodness, this lady could pray and she was a prayer warrior and she emanated the love of Jesus. And she had this remarkable. situation that on so many visits to hospital to have various bits of her body replaced, she had led people into the love of Jesus in those sort of spaces. And now she didn't have the capacity to get up and go to Lystra and cope with stoning. 

[00:34:03] And but But she did the work that God had allowed her to do in her suffering and and, and prayer is a work and, and radiating the love of Jesus is a work. And I don't say that to minimize and, and push us away from the work of the people that we've talked about in this episode and Paul himself, I just think sometimes we, we feel guilty about not being able to do certain things and I want our listeners to hear that, that. 

[00:34:30] That guilt isn't a motivator of Jesus. It's not how Jesus calls us to do things. 

[00:34:34] John: for sure for sure and and also recognizing that look I I think there will be certain moments where the Possibility of suffering goes up on behalf of the kingdom and another context unless we ourselves are putting us in the way of harm, the chances of suffering in this way are not so high. So, I think, when we're looking at Paul and Barnabas in the Book of Acts, these guys are pioneering. 

[00:35:01] They are reaching into new Gentile territory. They are encountering Jewish communities that maybe are a little bit attached from the Jerusalem story and aren't quite up with what has been going on and therefore the potential for misunderstanding, the potential for disagreement and the potential for violent clashing is clearly higher. 

[00:35:26] So I think I think it's also remembering the context of the suffering and we would have brothers and sisters all over the world. Their potential for physical suffering is. off the chart in compared to me. Here I am sitting in a gorgeous North Lincolnshire, English village. I've got gorgeous neighbors. 

[00:35:43] I've got nice friends, even if they disagree with my position as a follower of Jesus, which I'm sure many of them do. They're not burning my house down. They're not threatening my wife. They're not trying to kill my sausage dogs. Whereas there are parts of the world for our brothers and sisters that literally just breathing in and out as a follower of Jesus puts them in danger, let alone. 

[00:36:05] Going into the public marketplaces and proclaiming Jesus. So, so I think that's the other thing to remember. And, and that if you're in a context where you're not suffering the way Paul is suffering, don't, like don't panic about that. That's okay. If, if we're If we're running away from suffering because we're running away from the call of God to do the kingdom, then that's a different type of conversation. 

[00:36:33] But if you're in a context today where you are not coming under physical threat because you're a father of Jesus and you're not suffering in that way, That's okay. But for for thousands of people and some of the estimates are shocking, hundreds of thousands of followers of Jesus will be martyred in in any calendar year for simply being a follower of Jesus. 

[00:36:54] These are staggering ideas. I've never had that threat. But but as we pursue the kingdom. We pursue the kingdom in the context we're in and if we suffer, we suffer and that's part of the kingdom. And if we're blessed enough not to suffer, then, then we use our position of privilege and advantage to further the kingdom in other ways and help our brothers and sisters across the earth. 

[00:37:17] And I think that's a way for me to square the circle as well, David. Yeah. 

[00:37:20] David: And then maybe, maybe it's also worth saying that if you are suffering and it's because you are just being obnoxious and unwelcoming and unkind, in quotes, in the name of Jesus, that's on you and not on Jesus. 

[00:37:40] John: That's not Jesus fault. That's not Jesus. Don't be blaming Jesus for being obnoxious. Absolutely. No, 100%. And we've, I think we've all seen a bit of that in our lives. We've all witnessed people who are definitely putting themselves in the category of Pauline martyr. And actually, no, no, really. Yeah, that's a different what we've got here is just really obnoxious or stupid behavior. 

[00:38:05] That's Yeah. It's drawing, the sort of criticism you would expect it to draw.  

[00:38:09] David: And  
 

[00:38:10] John: yeah, 
 

[00:38:10] the chat.  

[00:38:11] David: people in the faith. That would be, maybe that's the marker that, that what Paul's work does is it's emboldens others in the way of Jesus. And oftentimes our behavior can be obnoxious and doesn't embolden in the way of Jesus. 

[00:38:28] John: Yeah