Divine Direction and Closed Doors | Disruptive Presence 80

John: 0:52

Well, David, we left our last podcast just talking about Timothy. I, I came off that buzzing. I, I was just thrilled with our conversation. I. Not just because of hopefully the little seeds we put in the ground for our listeners to think about Timothy and the relationship between him and Paul, but what they, and that relationship and their actions represent at a macro, a meta missional level, and the fact that so many beautiful ideas in so few verses. In that, in that reading, we, we, we probably could have. Pushed that a little bit harder if we wanted to, but, but we're, we're, we're moving on in the rest of X-XVI, but absolutely gorgeous stuff.

David: 1:35

My goodness, John, I was, I was just blown away in the recording how we drew connections that, that I, I mean, I, I said to you off air after the recording that. It really hit me so hard during the recording that we are, we are being introduced to the prototype pastor here. And so, and, and I have so many good pastors that have formed and shaped my life, and, and there's a level to which I realized as you were talking in that last episode. My goodness. This is the man that's at some level responsible for the shaping of these people who have shaped my life so much that, that he, you know, so, so my goodness, the debt of gratitude as I left that episode thought this, this, this young guy. Who? Paul says, let's go on a mission. Oh, and by the way, there's a small surgical procedure we're gonna partake in first. Were he to have said. I, I think I quite like living at home with my mom

John: 2:32

Yeah.

David: 2:34

how different our worlds would be. My

John: 2:36

absolutely true. Absolutely true. And, and of

David: 2:39

If anybody has ever said to you all scripture is God-breathed, right? If anybody's ever said that, think about this as a Bible podcast. That's because this guy said, yeah, I'll come with you, Paul. And then later Paul writes that line to Timothy and shapes Christian doctrine as a result of it. My goodness, my

John: 2:57

It's gorgeous. No, it's, it's beautiful. And, and you start to see the, the sort of interconnectedness where, where beautiful lines start to run all the way through the story. And and it really is quite remarkable. And I, and I would say to our listeners, if you take the time to read first and second Timothy two very. Deeply personal letters, as well as highly practical letters that Paul writes to this young man. And keep in the back of your mind, our previous conversation. I think it will change the tone even in the way you read. I, I sometimes think I can hear Paul talking when I read those letters because, because we're immersing ourselves in the story and therefore we're getting a sense of not just what he's saying, but who the man is and what he's, what his passion and heartbeat is. Yeah, I, it's funny, for the last year, I, I've been a part of my devotions. I've been in the Torah and I'm still halfway through Deuteronomy and I've been at this just the Torah section for a year. And I feel like now when I read Deuteronomy, I can hear Moses. It's like, do you know what I mean? I've spent that law with them. I could feel like, okay, I know what Moses sounds like now. So it's just incredible. And, and again, the, these are books that we've been around all of our lives and yet they continue to speak freshly and dynamically to us. So, so really beautiful. So we're, we're, we're, we're gonna carry on, we're gonna push in to verse six and onwards. And again, we, we had a bit of an awkward moment with Timothy that we had to discuss, and there is a really interesting sort of moment here. With Paul and his companions of whom we believe Timothy was one. So shall I pick the reading up from verse six and we'll go down to verse 10? Is that okay?

David: 4:38

Sounds great.

John: 4:39

Alright then, here we go. Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Messia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. So they passed by Messia and went down to Troas. During the night, Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him come over to Macedonia and help us. After Paul had seen the vision. We got ready at once to leave from Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

David: 5:33

My goodness.

John: 5:35

Marvelous.

David: 5:36

as you say, like complex, complex. If, if Timothy's journey of yielding to the Holy Spirit was complex. Personally, I wonder what, what we make of the way the Holy Spirit's working in this text next.

John: 5:53

Indeed and I, I would say for our listeners, it's definitely worthwhile if you've got a study bible or access to great dictionaries or stuff like that. This is, this is a good moment to grab your map 'cause this really will help in some ways in terms of what is going on and how the spirit of God ends up. Very, very clearly directing them to a very specific point in Troas, which then becomes the hop-off point to go into what we would call today modern Europe. And and of course in our last podcast, we talked about the letter to Philippi, and this literally leads us to the city. Of Philippi. So, so if, if, if you look at the sort of, if you're able to look at the map, it's like Paul and his team are trying to go sort of in a southwesterly type of direction into Asia, which would take them close to somewhere like Ephesus,

David: 6:55

Mm-Hmm.

John: 6:56

but then they're blocked from going west. And when they're blocked from going west, they try to go north. So it's mentions Bithynia. So Bithynia is right up to the north of that region. And, and I suspect that either they're gonna go north and then circle back to, to Tarsus or Antioch, or they're going to go further west than across. But, but the plan is to go north and they're stopped again.

David: 7:26

Mm.

John: 7:27

then they travel to Troas. So it's, it's worth, it's worth just checking that out on a map. It's really helpful to see the sort of distances and to, to sort of give you a little idea when they eventually make a decision to leave where they are and go to Troas. It's, it's like a 400 mile. 644 Kilometre journey to Troas. So that's a serious detour, which suggests they really do believe they've heard from God not to do something. And it's interesting that going to Troas, they don't. There's no direction from the spirit. It's not like this Holy Spirit says, don't go to Bithynia. Go to Troas. Or, or don't, don't go into Asia. Go to Troas. It's like they're stopped from going somewhere. And then implicitly, they seem to make the decision to go to Troas on their own, which is a port, um, significant city port. So maybe just to catch their breath and go, right, what's going on here? What should we do? And then of course everything changes. But of course what takes'em to throw us is these two blocking moments, which are incredibly significant. So I hope that helps our listeners, maybe some of our listeners don't have a map to hand, just roughly a a trying to give you a little bit of sense of direction. cause I, I think it's really important to recognise that the, Asia here would be Asia minor, so not necessarily even. The areas we would think of Asia, so, so if, if, if you look at the map, you've got Asia, which includes places like Thyra, Tyra, and Ephesus. So, so you, it, it's sometimes referred to as Asia Minor. But if you do get a map and follow it, it really is quite amazing. And they're blocked going west and then they're blocked going north and then they're redirected or they make a decision to go west, but in another route other than through Asia. Now interestingly, Paul will eventually get. Back to there. So Paul eventually goes to Ephesus on that side, but it's like, it's like the Holy Spirit is stopping them from going to that particular place at that particular time, which is an interesting conversation sometimes when I reflect when I get to teach 2 52, 1 of the little books I've written and I talk about the ministry of Jesus and how Jesus walked all over Israel. I, I put on a map the places that the Gospels records he goes, and it's quite staggering the amount of places Jesus goes to. What's also staggering is the places he doesn't go to. And, and that is also quite enlightening. Why doesn't he go there and he goes here? And again, there, there is a, there is a, a strategic significance.. It seems to be an issue of timing and direction, which is way above our pay grade. And, and, and we get a bit nervous about, hold on a minute, does that mean God sort of doesn't like people in Asia Minor and he, he does like people in Troas? What's going on here? And, and I think it's more strategic timing and, and direction rather than, than, God favoring one group over another, but it is an awkward moment. They are literally being stopped by God's spirit going in two directions, or at least to two destinations. Which then makes them sit and wait to see what will happen up next. So it it's as much, I, I, I think we, we start to learn from X 16. It is as much. About, there are no's in the mission as well as Yes. In the mission. So the there, there's a big yes in mission. Go everywhere. Absolutely. And yet, here's Paul and the team clearly making a decision. Well, let's go this way. And the Holy Spirit says, well, yeah, that, that's, that's okay, but it's not where I want you to go now. And then they go another way. No, it's not where I want you to go. And so you end up with a no, say the yes. Which is really, really awkward. I, I don't think it's a no for forever, but it's a no for them specifically at that moment in the mission that they are engaged in, if that makes sense. In terms of trying to square the circle.

David: 11:45

I was thinking about it as, when you are not very good at bowling and, and you, you put those barriers down the side of the, the, the bowling lane. It almost feels like that a little bit, that the holy Spirit's going, I know where I kind of want to get you to and my way of getting you there. Is not by saying, Hey, go over there in the initial period. It's by saying, no, no, no, not that way. Oh, no, no, no. That way. And you see them sort of bouncing their way down the lane until finally they get this vision and, and that starts to make sense to them, doesn't it?

John: 12:17

Yeah, it does.

David: 12:18

but I, I do like that notion of, of remembering that. The, the Holy Spirit is working a bigger plan. We are just seeing Paul's story here. There are other disciples, other followers of Jesus who are working in other areas, and I think one of the challenges of the sort of Western reading of the text is that we forget about. The rest of the story. Right? So there's, , like the tradition that Thomas heads out into the, eastern parts of the globe that, we know that there's based on earlier in acts, the gospel spreading down into, into Africa. And so this notion that the spirit is working a plan of which we only have a. Part of the story Acts, I think is a really, is a really fun one and, and respectful one to listen to that, that we are seeing the development of the Western tradition of the Gospel now. But we must remember that the spirit was working elsewhere also.

John: 13:13

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and for me, what really grabs me is the strength of the language, kept by the Holy Spirit. The spirit of Jesus would not allow them. That, that sense of literally standing against their action. In, in, in terms of keeping them and preventing them, there's a sense in which one action seems to be stopping them from moving and the other action seems to be not permitting them from going.

David: 13:46

Yes.

John: 13:46

So, so you're, you're getting, you're getting a sense that something went on and we're not quite sure what, where Paul and the team conclude in terms of Asia minor, right. We are being stopped from going in there. Now, what that was, whether it was a, the voice of the spirit or circumstances, we don't know, but they're being stopped, kept from going in. It's like the Holy Spirit stood in their way guarded. Asia minor against them sort of thing. And then, and then it's like, okay, the, they're, they're going to go to Bithynia and they seem the, the, the nuance of the word seems to be they're gonna ask permission and they're not given that permission. The spirit of Jesus would not allow them, would not permit them to go. So again, you, you get this, there, there is this sense of, of sometimes in the big yes of the Gospel, there are strategic nos. And, and that actually. We, we, we've talked about the disrupting presence of the Holy Spirit. Well, here's the Holy Spirit sort of disrupting even their plan. Paul and and Barnabas had a two year journey where it feels like if you read the text carefully, they just headed off in the direction they wanted to go in. And everywhere they went, they were heading sort of in that sense, Virgin Gospel territory. And Paul is following the same pattern. He's sort of. Heading off in the same sorts of directions. The circle is bigger, but he's sort of following that sort of idea, and yet this time the spirit disrupts their plans by stopping them.

David: 15:24

Hmm.

John: 15:25

and what's wonderful is that they, they have the discernment and the faith to listen to the stop. Because, because when everything inside you has been told yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then suddenly the Holy Spirit is saying, no, no, no. That requires faith. I think it, I think it requires as much faith to say, to accept a no. When you thought it was a yes as to embrace a yes when you were hoping. For a no, and, and here's this team now having to embrace a no when they thought everything was green light to go. Does, does that sort of make sense in terms of the, the, the disruptiveness of what's going on here?

David: 16:04

Very much so. I mean, I, I was thinking as well about the. The language is so strong, and I was looking like this, this, this Greek word that Paul, that that Luke uses to describe their stopping. It's interesting. It's, it's the word that's used in all of the synoptic Gospels when Jesus says, do not stop the little children coming to me. I. It's the word that's used in the synoptic gospels when the disciples meet someone casting out demons and they try to stop him. And Jesus says, do not stop him. It's the word that Jesus uses when he says, don't let, don't stop anyone taking your shirt if they also want your coat. But, but the one that interested me was, the Paul writing in Romans, he to the Romans, he uses the same language I have often intended to come to you, but thus far have been stopped. Right. So, so there's, there's definitely. But it is fascinating that it's being used almost in the positive here is it's the spirit doing the stopping. Whereas ordinarily we encounter this language. This is the sort of thing the spirit works against, right? Actually, if you're to stop things, this is negative. You're, you're quenching what the spirit's doing, but there's definitely the sense that. At very least from Romans, we see that Paul is cognizant that this is what's going on here, that, that, that we are being held back and prevented. And, and I wonder about, I wonder about the personal implications of that, of how often. We, we talk about God opening doors and we talk about God doing things to guide us, but I wonder if there's a good reflection for us as, as, as followers of Jesus to think about how we react to that. How do we, how, I mean like, like for Paul and his team here, I mean, what does this even mean, John? Does it mean. Does it mean that they got up one morning and said, let's let's head, into Asia Minor, and they felt in their prayer time, the Holy Spirit said no, or, or if you'll forgive me to be facetious for a moment, or, did they get up, jump on their horse? The horse's leg went lame and it fell over. Timothy broke a strap on his sandal. They got the. Plague as they were trying to leave you. Like how were, how are they coming to the interpretation that I don't think the spirit wants us to go here and that need to interpret. That that's what's happening. I, I think we have this tendency as Christians, particularly from the Pentecostal and Charismatic traditions that you and I are part of that any attempt to stop us doing what we think we're doing for God, we see as resistance of the enemy. And yet here, these early disciples with this, and I love this way, you've catched this as this kind of No. Within the yes here, these disciples are sharp enough to, to identify we are doing the work of God. We know we're called to do this work of God, but this resistance that's stopping us do the work of God is God himself doing this resistance? I mean, that's, I mean, that's a, there's a lot of discernment going on there, isn't there?

John: 19:11

Totally. And, and in fact, it, it's, it's even more powerful if you think about Paul's other language. When he writes to the church at Thessalonica, he tells them that he, time and time again, tried to get to them, but Satan blocked them or literally translated cut in on them. So you, you've got, Paul is clearly not afraid to call it out when he thinks it's demonic or darkness that's stopping the progress. So, so it, it is a, it is a sort of a, to to, to those in this. And I, he said, no, no, I, I couldn't get you because Satan cut in on us. He doesn't elaborate, doesn't explain, which is very unhelpful. It would be nice if he just unpacked that a little bit, but he doesn't say, and in the same way here. Luke doesn't unpack. It doesn't explain. It just says this is what happened. But the difference is that they're, they're saying there will, there are moments when you put those two ideas together or moments where we may be cut in on by the enemy and, and that's, that's trying to stop us do, doing what we want to do for God. And then there are moments when it is God who is stopping us. Because the particular thing that we're trying to do is not what he wants us to do at that moment or possibly forever. And it's interesting that they're, they're prevented from going into Asia Minor there, but they eventually get the Ephesus and they eventually, the gospel gets to Thyatira eventually. So, so it's not like this is, this is a no-go zone. Something else is going on here. But for them it's a, it's a definite. Whether it's a voice in the night or whether it is it, it is, the horse died. I mean, I don't know, but we've all,

David: 20:59

I love that. That's the image we've now all got in our heads. DePaul's horse falling over.

John: 21:05

Just, just had enough all those miles and now you're thinking of going to Troas. No way. We're not doing it. So, so yeah, it, it, it, it, and of course we've all had experiences. I think I, I've had experiences where I've felt to do something and in my prayers, haven't had a peace about it, haven't had rest about it, and that's been a bit of a sign to me. I'm not sure the Lord wants me to do this. And then there've been other things I've tried to do for the Lord, and the door has absolutely, practically physically shot in my face and it will not open. And you're going, okay, I conclude then. The Lord doesn't want me to do this, but it's, it's, it's, it, there's no, I don't think there's a one easy template here that this is what it looked like when the spirit stops you, or this is what it looked like when God shuts the door on you. But Acts 16 is showing us it is possible, and God, even in a mission that he has sanctioned, is prepared to shut certain doors in order to get us strategically to where he needs us to go. So we're trusting in that providential care, however it works out, and whatever it looks like.

David: 22:11

It strikes me, and Axe is such a gorgeous place to have this conversation that. That we see the whole world through our own individual perspective and we, I, I think very much are. Our reading of the texts sometimes call us to that sort of way of thinking that God's working out something for us in the whole process. What I love about Paul and his his ways of doing things is that he sees himself as a player in God's great narrative. So, so he's able to go, I think I really want this. It doesn't seem like this is happening. So, God's obviously got a different, something going on. And, and I, I think one of our challenges often, if I could be pastoral for a second, John, is that because we tend to just, think about how it relates to us. When the spirit does stop us from doing something, it can feel so cataclysmic to us. Like I've had moments in my life where I'm like, this is definitely what God's calling us to. I remember, I remember seeing a job once that just because of the stage I was at, the place I was at, it felt like somebody it felt and as it is arrogantly it. Felt like somebody had looked at my history and written a job description for me, and I didn't even get an interview. And I remember, and I remember being convinced that, oh, this is the way that God's opening things up for me. And and now I'm fortunate to realize, years, years later, oh my goodness, I'm so. Glad the way that things actually worked out, but at the time I was, I was very distraught by it and it drew me. If we can jump out of acts for a second, and I think this is where a little bit of sometimes the problem comes from. The famous verse in Romans eight. Romans eight twenty-eight, and in the English tradition since the King James, we generally translate this verse, something like, this is what the NRSV does with it. We know that all things work together for good, for those who love God and are called according to his purpose. And we read that text as basically. Only ultimately all good things are happening to you, which on one level of course it's true, you're gonna end up with Jesus in the resurrection. So yes, you will eventually look back and say, all things were good, but our way of reading this is that God is working together for my good. Right. In fact, and I've even heard it sung that way in certain songs, and he's working all things for my good. But it's interesting that that. Probably a more consistent way, not just simply with the Greek, but also with the passage to translate that is that God is working with those. He loves to bring about the good of His purposes. Right? I mean, that's a very rudimentary translation here. But I mean, and and I tell you why. One of the reasons why I think that's. A very important translation is even texts like the NIV offer you that as a footnote, right? And, and what often happens is because of very famous verses like Romans, VIII-XVIII, and the King James tradition. In in, in the in English world. We've got that verse seared in our minds. So, so the translators, or what they're doing in their footnote is they're just saying, I wonder if you might wanna think about reading this verse like this. But it's gonna feel wrong to you because of how you've encountered this verse. But if you read all of chapter eight, God is working a plan, he's working a purpose for the world. I think that's a better purpose is probably better than a plan that imagines God in heaven with a map. But, but God has purposes and the invitation is that we join him. Those purposes because we love him because God is working towards good. And I think if you hear that in Paul's voice, if you hear that, what Paul's saying is God's doing something for the good of everyone and I wanna be part of that. It makes sense then of how he can say in Romans, I was prevented. I was stopped from coming to you until now, but, but God's purposes are still being fulfilled. And I think then it's also. Easy to understand from there how his disciple, Dr. Luke can narrate the story like this. Well, the spirit stopped us going there. The spirit prevented us from going over here because this is not the story of Paul. It's the story of God. Right? I mean, just I've took far too long to explain that, but I don't, I don't know if that helps.

John: 26:36

No, it's, it's, it's brilliant. It, it did absolutely right. And, and ultimately this is not about where Paul wants to go. This is about where God wants Paul to go. This is about like I reflected on Jesus. It's not just you, yeah. Just go anywhere. You're the, you're the son of God. Everywhere you goes, good. But actually there, there are certain places that are strategic and important and, and. We'll have maximum impact for what God wants to do at that moment. In the world. And I, I think raising our vision beyond ourselves is absolutely essential, not only for basic discipleship, I think as a follower of Jesus, that it's not about me. I am not at the center of the story. And that actually it doesn't end with me. It didn't even begin with me, but to raise our vision beyond, it's all about God, tailoring the universe so that I have a great life personally. Now, listen. Don't hear what I'm not saying. Do, do I believe that we can have immensely enriched lives at every level because we follow Jesus? I do. I believe that, and I would point to my own experiences as, as a sort of a fruit of that, but. Ultimately, the Lord has called us into his service so that we will be partners with him entrusted with this glorious gospel to take his name to the ends of the earth. So it's about him not just blessing me, but empowering me. So that I can be the person he wants me to be for his purpose and his greater plan. And I think we see this at a, just a, an amazing macro level. The Holy Spirit intervenes against Paul for his plan in order to introduce him to something that would be strategically greater, which may not have been obvious at the time. So I think, I think that tension. Of, yes, the, the Lord loves us and cares for us, but actually all of us are called to something greater and therefore there will be moments when the Holy Spirit literally intervenes in our lives, seemingly against us in order to man to, to, to maneuver us to somewhere. Even greater or better or more significant. I think that's a very grown up idea. It's a very, it demands faith, it demands maturity, it demands an understanding of faith that is much, much, much bigger than any individual at any moment, in any time, in any experience. It's, it's the call of the gospel.

David: 29:15

Which is beautifully connected to the previous episode when we see exactly the same from Timothy, same faith, faith to trust. This is big. Than me. I have absolutely right to not be circumcised, but, but I'm playing, I'm playing in a different field now, and I love the fact you, you call, there's a maturity to it. There's a, okay, there's, I, I mean, I think this is the theological weight of the freedom and the forgiveness of Christ. I, I've said this, I've said this a lot, and it often gets a raised eyebrow when I say it, but the, the reason that I believe. That following Jesus is a better faith. And it's not very inclusive when I say it like this, John. But the reason I believe following Jesus is a better faith than, than the other faiths I see on option is that Christianity starts where most faiths and religions end. So, so the challenge for a lot of and I'm, I am unashamedly Christian, and I don't mean that to speak down upon other people, I mean, it's very complex to sort of navigate that in in these days, but. But here's what I notice is fascinating about Christianity, is that most religions that I've looked at, the aim is how do I work out what I am? What I need to do to align myself with what God asks off me, right? And what Paul does in his theology is he tells you at the very beginning, the first thing you discover as a Christian is that you are now right with God. Right. So there is no sense of, well, if you do this and if you follow that, and if you commit to this and if you make these things, there is just this gift given to you. You have been set right in God, before you even knew this, the cross happened before you were born. In the case of everybody from probably, the second century onwards. So all of us come late to the realization that God worked, has worked in our ed. On our behalf, the gorgeousness of this, and that alone is a gorgeous statement, but the gorgeousness of this is it now frees us up to not put ourselves at the center of the story, right? When I no longer have to live out my religious affections, I. As, but I gotta do this because I'm hoping this will be okay for God. I can forget about all of that. You are right with God. So now I can say with myself no longer at the center of the story, what can I be part of to help others find this truth? To, to help the world be brought to God's justice and righteousness. And I think so often religious life becomes. So intrinsically self-centered because it's about me trying to ensure that I'm okay with God and these guys on this missionary journey, this Apostle Paul. I mean, this is his message of Galatians and Romans and all these texts that you are right with God. You have been rectified or set right or justified, whatever language you use, and this is why I think it's so important to get these theological pieces. In our order, in our minds, because otherwise we will always be tempted to think, yeah, but, but what about me? Am am I gonna be okay with this? And then when the spirit does stop us from doing something, we falsely interpret that as I'm in a bad place with God, right? Because we're constantly putting ourselves and our journey towards God at the Centre, the message of the Gospel is, you have been reconciled with God, but then you know, second Corinthians five makes this point. So because of that. We are now his ambassadors because, because you don't have to worry about all of that sort of stuff in the background. And I, I mean, again, I, I see, feel like I keep taking us off on detours in this episode, John, but I think these are important theological blocks to make sense of why we can say the things that we're saying. Does that, does that make

John: 32:57

Yeah, yeah. It totally does. It totally does. And, and I, and I love their, their response to it all. Dr. Luke sums it up in just a few words, he says, so they passed and went down to Troas. So I again. The gorgeous maturity of is number one, they didn't panic. Okay. We've been stopped twice, but they didn't panic. Number two, they actually position themselves forward, so, so if you look at the map, they're actually not going back the way, the way they've come. They decide to go to Troas, which is forward at least in a geographical direction. There's a sense in which in not panicking and positioning themselves, they know, okay, if the Holy Spirit has said no twice, there must be something else. And it's our job to position ourselves for his voice. And I think that that sort of sets up this, this next conversation, which, which we probably have on our next podcast, but it sets up an amazing moment of opportunity because number one, they didn't panic, they didn't. Storm off on God. They didn't shake the fist at God. They went, okay, we trust the Lord. We trust his providence. We trust his purpose, and we trust his ability to get his from A to Z. He has shut the doors twice, so let's go and wait for him here in a forward position and see if there's something he wants to say to us. And of course. The rest, as they say is history. We literally have a dynamic geographical shift takes place as a result of that moment, but I, I, I love the ordinariness of it. They pass by Missy on the down to Troyes and maybe even some of our listeners, you've had a couple of doors shut or, or like your job interview that you didn't even get and, and they are moments not to panic. But there are moments to position yourself forward in the presence of the Lord and say, Lord, if you've shut one door, then maybe it's because there's another door you want to open.